DA vs. SA

[sterno]

For concealed carry purposes what do you think is better? I seem to have better shot placement with a SA, I guess it's because of the extra pull on a DA trigger.

Just looking for some input because I'm looking for my first CCW. I've shot lots of guns but I've never really gave thought to specific things like DA/SA.

 

[FrankDrebin]

DA is better. At the distances you'll be worried about, the alleged (for the average shooter) increased accuracy of S/A isn't necessary. I was trained to NEVER cock a revolver, that it's something you shouldn't even think about doing in a combat shooting situation with a D/A gun.

 

[Erik]

And I believe single action to be the better option of the two, regardless of the shooting application.

Not to say double action is bad. I have DA/SA and DAO handguns - All serve me well with practice.

 

[Colonel Klink]

The real reason for considering DA over SA is far more for what will happen afterwards. In California you can figure at least $10,000 to protect yourself in court after you are forced to shoot someone. It is much easier to protect yourself with any qun that an attorney can't say has a "Hair Trigger" that you can use "To kill people".

I purchased a Taurus PT145 Millemium Pro .45 cal for just that reason. It has a very long pull DA trigger that at first caused me to pull my shots. After shooting it once a week (low rounds) for over a year I have solved that problem so I am pleased to have 11 rounds of .45 ACP in one gun.

SA trigger guns are great for target practice and competition. I have a Para Ordnance P14-45 Limited with a very light trigger. It is a pleasure to shoot. Hope this helps.

 

[Mannlicher]

funny, with semi auto's I really like a SA, like a 1911 Colt, but with revolvers, I prefer DAO.

 

[FrankDrebin]

The real reason for considering DA over SA is far more for what will happen afterwards. In California you can figure at least $10,000 to protect yourself in court after you are forced to shoot someone. It is much easier to protect yourself with any qun that an attorney can't say has a "Hair Trigger" that you can use "To kill people".

I don't believe that would ever be an issue that would decide the question of culpability in a shooting one way or the other, civilly or criminally, or to any significant degree civilly unless the shooter is contending that the shooting was an accident instead of an on-purpose. I'd be interested to see any case law citations you have available on the issue though...If you're going to be sued, a lot of nonsensical things will be brought up. If I were the lawyer and you had a DAO instead of a S/A, I'd try to imply that you use that kind of gun because you're afraid of your inexperience with guns and don't have confidence in your ability and are afraid you'd shoot someone by mistake if you had a S/A. I'd like to see some objective proof that shows that you'd be more likely to be sued, or the damages are likely to be increased with S/A rather than D/A guns or shooting.

The real reason to consider each is to decide on the gun that will enable you to be as fast and as accurate as circumstances require.

 

[USP45usp]

On semi's, I like SA. I carry my two main carry guns cocked and locked (Kimber Pro-Carry and HK USP .45).

On a revolver, DA of course . I don't walk around with a cocked SA revolver in my pocket. Then again, I don't use SA revolvers as a carry piece.

As for the legalities thing, anything and everything will come up in court, no matter what you had to use (be it a gun or a baseball bat).

Wayne

 

["Doc"]

For a CCW, since you haven't mentioned it, you may want to consider getting a Double Action Only (DOA). This way you always get a consistent trigger pull, and it generally is long enough to be safe (IMHO) if the weapon does not have a manual safety.

Most companies have these options available (Sig, Berretta, etc) so you wont be limited in your choices, and FYI Law Enforcement agencies usually have DAO's as a requirement.

However, if your most comfortable and proficient with particular style, I say stick with it. Of course, a little practice makes perfect if you decide you like something different.

 

[Kevinch]

For a CCW, since you haven't mentioned it, you may want to consider getting a Double Action Only (DOA). This way you always get a consistent trigger pull, and it generally is long enough to be safe (IMHO) if the weapon does not have a manual safety.

Not to disagree - that is true - but, a cocked & locked S/A also gives you a consistant trigger pull, and has a positive safety that must be switched off before taking the first shot.

 

[sterno]

So basically, a DA or DAO pistol is generally safer for as a CCW. I'm all for safer. How hard do you think it would be to overcome that fliching that arises from the extended trigger pull?

 

[tom650604]

Either one is fine IMO. When you pull your gun out there is only two things in mind. One, you pull out your gun and hopefully the BG runs off. Two, you pull out your gun and you pull the trigger all the way. If you pull out your gun and you hesitate, you are a dead man.

 

[Mike Irwin]

One of my main carry guns is a hammerless revolver.

But another one of my carry guns is an HK P7.

I guess I like both.

 

[Handy]

A carry gun should be so simple that you can use it after you've been hit over the head with a bottle. That's the reality - not El Presidente drills.


DA. No safeties - draw and squeeze.

 

[9mmepiphany]

i used to believe that the condition 1 (C&L'd) pistol was faster for the first shot than a DA, even though cooper wrote that they were equally as fast. i just could understand it until i watched ernest langdon shooting his IDPA beretta 92 elite...it was even better when he demonstrated how it was done.

being that the first shot of both the SA and the DA/SA pistols are equally as fast and accurate, it really comes down to a matter of safety. IMO a DA first trigger stroke is a more deliberate action than wiping off the thumb safety on a 1911. in the heat of a shooting situation, i believe that a DA trigger stroke gives you a little extra margin of safety against an unintended discharge.

 

["Doc"]

Kevinch Quote:

"Not to disagree - that is true - but, a cocked & locked S/A also gives you a consistant trigger pull, and has a positive safety that must be switched off before taking the first shot."


Very true, I should have included that into my post, thanks for the polite correction.

 

[Colonel Klink]

Frankdrebin wroye:

I'd be interested to see any case law citations you have available on the issue though...

Refer to any back issue of Guns and Ammo with any article by Massad Ayoob. He is constantly explaining how attorneys attempt to make the shooter look like a killer. Sometimes they are able to do it since most juries have no idea of how guns work. What you said is logicial and makes sense. What is said in court is neither.

If you want to take a chance on a tricky lawyer making you look bad, even when all his facts are false, that's the chance you take. Me, I'm going to do all in my power to keep that wolf away from my door.

Every time I put my gun on I pray I won't be forced to use it. If it ever becomes him or me I will do all in my power to make sure it isn't me. If I have taken the right steps before then the aftermath won't be as bad. Part of why I do what I do is because I spend a lot of time in California and they have more attornys than a lot of states combined.

 

[USP45usp]

DA. No safeties - draw and squeeze.

With the guns that I've trained on, I draw, take off safety (even on revolvers) and fire.

Revolvers don't have a safety, but my thumb, due to my training with Semi's, automatically goes up to "take off safety". And yes, those on my left side that see's me "taking off the safety" on a gun that doesn't have a safey wonders about it until I tell them that it's basically ingrained training .

Wayne

 

[FrankDrebin]

Refer to any back issue of Guns and Ammo with any article by Massad Ayoob. He is constantly explaining how attorneys attempt to make the shooter look like a killer. Sometimes they are able to do it since most juries have no idea of how guns work. What you said is logicial and makes sense. What is said in court is neither.

If you have a D/A, the plaintiff's lawyer will make you look like a killer because you chose a D/A. If you used a S/A gun, he'll make you look like a killer because you chose S/A. The point is, it doens't matter when you're being sued. To decide to carry only D/A because Massad Ayoob says it will will cost less zeros on a lawsuit is silly in my opinion. Please give me 5 cases where culpability in a civil suit was decided to any degree based on the fact that the shooter used a S/A gun in an intentional shooting. If Ayoob wrote about it, he should have included foot notes with the appropriate case citation. If he DIDN'T, it's just his opinion that he seems to be presenting as fact. He loves to use hackneyed lawyer cliches to back up his opinion without providing any actual case citation. Of COURSE the lawyer is going to try to make you look bad, that's his JOB. He'd do it equally effectively no matter what kind if action your revolver had.

I don't care to read Massad's opinion on the subject because it is not case law. I'd rather you tell me what case law Masaad quoted. Didn't Massad say that you are more likely than not to be sued after a justified shooting? Someone else paraphrased him as saying that, so I'm not quoting him. But, if he DID say that, he's full of crap on that count. You are NOT more likely than not to be sued after a justifiable shooting.

And if you shoot someone and end up being sued and think that the lawyer won't be able to come up with some logical reason why your choice of gun was "bad" because you took Ayoob's advice and shot the bad guy with a DAO gun, I think you'll be sadly mistaken. As I said before, I prefer a D/A revolver, but the fact that Masaad Ayoob says, without a good number of cases to back it up, that a S/A will cost you in the court room, has nothing to do with why I like D/A revolves for self-defense.

 

[stephen426]

I used to carry a Sig P228 but I switch to a Glock 26. One reason is it is a smaller package. I had the 13 round mags but I don't think it will make a difference. If I can't hit what I am aiming at with 10, what will 3 extra do for me?

The main reason though was the long and heavier double action trigger pull for the first round on the DA P228. The it switches to a beautiful light SA trigger with little slack. I love the fact that the Glock has a consistant trigger pull from the first shot to the last. I hated Glock triggers at first but I have gotten used to them. I know how much slack to take up and I can tell my the pressure when the shot will fire. Despite the equal distance both the DA trigger and the Glock triggers needs to be pulled, the light and consistant weight of the Glock make it much easier, for me at least, to hit what I am aiming at with my first shot. I do not have the time, nor do I find it practical to practice to the point where I will not pull my first shot with a DA shot.

I still love my Sigs but I reserve them for range use. I can probably still shoot better with the Sigs in SA but they also have longer barrels than the G26 I carry. I do not have to worry about flipping safeties or cocking hammers. That is a lot less things I need to be thinking of if the poop hits the fan. I would rather worry about shoot or don`t shoot, getting my front sight on target, and trigger control.

You guys worry about defending yourselves from an over zealous district attourney in a questionable self defense shooting. I worry more about EACH and EVERY round that I fire hitting my INTENDED target and not some bystander. For me, I shoot the Glock much better so that is what I carry. Get over the plain Jane looks and the mushy trigger and you just might fall in love.

 

[Nnobby45]

Mark Seiden, one of America's foremost criminal defense attorneys, especially regarding the use of deadly force, carries a SIG P239 SA/DA. He says that it's tough to defend clients who used a pistol like a 1911 .45 auto. That's why he carries the SIG.

Of course, what I just said won't have the slightest effect on those who are determined to believe that the type of gun or ammo you use doesn't matter in court. If you live in Florida, and you're unjustly accused, don't hesitate to call Mark Seiden or Roy Black. They may still defend you and your handloaded ammo, single action pistol and all. Of course, they are busy and don't come cheap.

I'm always amused at those who "have looked up cases and never found a conviction" because a defendant used this or that. The truth is that the evidence is like weight on a scale. It all adds up. When the jury comes in, the ammo or gun will just be one of the things that influenced their decision. It may weigh huge or very little.

A good attorney can debunk some of the false allegations, for $150 an hour, and you can always say "See there, no conviction because of the ammo or gun I used." And if you are convicted you can always say, "see there, nothing in the record says I'm in prison (or lost my life savings) because I used a SA, along with my own handloads."

You may never know if the jury's decision against you was razor thin and if your "killer ammo", or "gunfighter's pistol" is what made the difference--criminal or civil court.

Having said that, I have to agree the SA vs. DA issue, along with some others, may be more important in some places than others.