CZ Semi-Auto rifle for 3 gun

dakota.potts

New member
I want to compete in 3 gun sometime in 2014 and I'll hopefully be getting enough money soon to fund a rifle if not the shotgun as well.

I originally had a RRA Competition AR-15 picked out.

However, I really love CZ products and I'd like to show that. I know there are plenty of great CZ shotguns on the market but I'm looking at their rifles. Are there any other options besides the VZ 58? How do the 58s work in 3 gun? I've heard some surprisingly good things about them but curious if anybody here has experience.

Of course, my pipe dream is that they import a semi auto BREN to the States... but I don't see that happening for a while.
 

Wyosmith

New member
I am pretty sure the VZ58 would be fine.
As with the AKs, it's going to slower to reload than an AR, and not as accurate, but it's clearly good enough to fight with.

"3 Gun matches” are supposed to be training for a fight, but as with nearly all types of shooting competition they have become speed races and equipment races, so I would not expect to win against a good shooter armed with an AR, but that in my mind is not as important as most folks seem to believe it is. 3 Gun is a game. It’s a very good game and a good competitor is a person you would probably not want to get into a deadly fight against, but as good as many of them are, it’s still a competition. You don’t die if you loose.

It’s not as focused on deadly combat as it could be. It favors the shooters that can shoot fastest and not miss, and that is a very good skill to learn, but in war 2 skill sets that are even more important than shooting are movement and communication.

I am NOT in any way against 3 gun matches and I think they are wonderful ways to train, but they are not as complete as they could be in (only) 2 ways.

#1The targets are not shooting back. 9No training can really prepare a person for that. )

#2 the targets do not move and get out of the line of fire, giving you only time to make one or sometimes 2 good hits. That's how real fight go about 99% of the time.

That kind of training is WAY more realistic. To train you how a real fight will probably be is better than winning a cup.

If you can set up a course of fire with both the targets and the shooter moving, your training will be far more beneficial.

In such a course I have found that those using AK-47s, AK-74s M1As, HKs and FN-FALS do about as well as those that have ARs. So I have to believe a VZ would be fine for training, (and they are very good guns,) so I doubt you would have any problems at all for the real purpose of that training. That purpose is NOT to win a cup or a ribbon. It’s to learn to fight effectively.

Most 3 gun matches today are set up to test shooter and AR against shooter with another AR.
Pistols and shotguns are probably all about equally matched, but the AR is clearly that easiest carbine/rifle to master for speed of fire and for speed of reloading.

Fast shooting with courses of fire that require several hits on a still target, in a short period of time are often specified.

It’s good fun, and good for competition, but in a fight enemies don’t stay still when you shoot at them--- and REALLY don’t stay still if you SHOOT THEM unless they are DRT (dead right there)

If they do hit the ground dead you would stop shooting that enemy and look for another.

So the courses of fire are not as “realistic” as the so-called experts seem to believe.

If you can hit a 5” circle in the middle of the “chest area” of a target in 3 seconds you could also hit the head with one of two in less time, right? In a real fight you will NEVER have opportunity to shoot an enemy 4 times in the chest without him moving.
Just like in deer hunting, a good hit in the chest, spine or brain is going to give better results than peripheral hits around the center of the intended target.

In fact the real world has shown us that if you hit an enemy in an area outside the central nervous system 4-6 times, and spread those hits out they kill better than hitting them all together, but neither is as good as a center hit that traumatizes the central nervous system.

CNS hits drop people and then they bleed out.

Multiple hit that do not traumatize the central nervous system cause the enemy to stop firing only when he bleeds out first, or gives up.

A better way to train for rapid fire combat drills is to set up the course to demand hits on some moving targets, but we seldom see that (that is how I set my courses up, but outside of a few Marine unites, I don’t know of anyone else doing that. I have an acquaintance in a SEAL team who tells me his fellows are now adopting that method of training, but as I said, it’s rare.

Learning to top up your rifle and to put ACCURATE fire on target is FAR more important than fast group shooting on a paper or gong that doesn’t move.

Learning to use cover, concealment and communication skills is even more important that the shooting skills. Situational awareness is the focus that is the foundation of everything else.

So the VZ (or any other carbine) may not be as good for gaming, but I do not think they are a lot worse for fighting.

The AR is clearly faster to manipulate the safety, and to reload a magazine into, but again I am comparing the ARs to the AKs and therefore also to the VZ to the extent I can guess. I am just guessing about the VZ, but I think my guess is justified. The VZ is a bit faster than the AK with its safety and reloading, but not as fast as the AR.

Anyway, in a real fight the AKs of the world have proven to be QUITE effective and VERY GOOD tools for a soldier. In power and also in reliability they are better than the ARs in the opinion of many. Some many say the opposite, but I have not met one yet that has been in combat against one who will say that. (other than some snipers who can stay out of range of the AK.)

If you like the VZ don’t let anyone talk you out of it. One argument to its favor may be that getting a VZ is a bit difficult these days, and getting an AR is quite easy.

So you can get the AR later if you find you want to have both. If you like the VZ get it soon.

So………that’s my 2 cents worth.
You may place value on my opinion, or you may value it at what it cost you.

Nothing!
 

MarkCO

New member
WADR, the prior post has not much to do with the question, nor with 3Gun.

There are people who show up to 3Gun matches with various AK variants and in various calibers other than .223. If they want to play the game, they will sell the AKs or put them back in the closet and get a DI AR-15 pattern rifle. Faster to reload, softer recoil, more accurate, and, as such, a huge market of parts and accessories to go even faster.

That is not to say you can't use whatever you have. I shot my first match with an 870 pump, a Marlin Camp 9 and a Glock 22. I currently have state of the art equipment, but it took me years to get here. 3Gun is NOT for the faint of heart or for the thin of wallet. 3Gun also has MANY flavors, from go fast berms matches to Natural Terrain rifle heavy to Enduro to Iron-Man. There are almost as many flavors as there are MDs. While the skill level at the top has the best all-around shooters in the world, I seriously doubt any of them would call it "training." However, in the current top 5, we have a decorated AMU shooter, a veteran LE SWAT trainer, a civilian trainer, another LEO and a veterinarian. I'd choose any one of them in a real fight over self proclaimed "shooters".

Short answer, if you want a CZ, sure, get it and have fun with it. If you want to compete in 3Gun, get a DI AR-15.
 

armoredman

New member
With proper training and equipment, a vz-58 can be surprisingly quick to reload. The NEA/NEIT ambidextrous mag release and extended bolt release meak it pretty quick, with practice.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y2ZovkHRjg0

The bad thing for the AKM pattern is the lack of a bolt hold open. The vz-58 does have that option, and with the extended bolt release, no movement is needed on the shooting hand to manipulate the whole thing. Now to watch a fumble fingered beginner do it...:p

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xz-zLNrV83w

5.56mm is so very popular due to darn near complete lack of recoil, I think. :D With handloads, I can drop the recoil down pretty low, especially with the cast lead loads I developed. No matches down here to try it in.:(

Edit to add, CZ-USA doesn't import the SA vz-58 pattern rifles. They can be had from CzechpointUSA, who get them from Czech Small Arms in the Czech Republic, or from Century Arms, made in the USA with US receivers and barrels on parts kits - surprisingly enough, the CAI vz-2008 has a good reputation.
 

dakota.potts

New member
I want to start shooting in many capacities. Real world combat training, 3 gun, carbine classes, high power, maybe even hunting. I just love shooting and some day want to teach. To teach I have to learn everything I can and I feel like competitions are one facet of training (in addition to actual training) that will help me get there.

I may start with the VZ and then work up to an AR. Or I may get the AR and get the VZ. If I buy one, I don't know how long it will be before I can justify the expenses for the other.

I just really love the CZ products. They've got an answer for the handgun, the shotgun, large bore bolt action rifles, .22 trainers etc. I just thought it would really be cool to be able to complete that with a CZ semi auto rifle.

I guess I'll think about the decision a little more before I buy.
 

dakota.potts

New member
I thought CZ had the VZ-58 Sporting line? They list it on their website.

EDIT: it appears the designation I'm looking for is the CZ 858
 
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armoredman

New member
CZ-USA listed the vz-58 briefly, but was discontinued in 2010. I have one of the last ones to come in a CZ-USA box. It really is a great rifle.
 

lmccrock

New member
This should probably be in the competition forum since that is what the post is about. Anyway...

Find the 3-gun matches close by. What are the distances? All pistol bays, like 50 yards or less? Mid range, like 100-200 yds? Long (by 3-gun standards) to 5-600 yds? Not sure what VZ58 sights are like but can you hit a 500 yard, 4 MOA (20-inch) diameter target with them?

Odds are the money put into a VZ58 or AK will need to be spent again when you decide to be more competitive and get the AR. AR prices are back down, mostly, so get the AR first. If it isn't right, AR upgrades and mods can be done gradually, incrementally.
 

5.56RifleGuy

New member
On the rifle its self, It wouldn't be my first choice for three gun.

That being said, it is a nice quality rifle that I would say is better than the standard ak 47 clone. I wish they had one in 5.45 as I like it better than the 7.62 round. I have one of the Czech point vz 58 rifles. The military side folder. If I were you, I would get the fixed stock, well anything other than the wire folder. It looks cool, but as you can imagine isn't as pleasant to shoot.

My only real complaint about it is there is no muzzle brake. The barrel is threaded, but its got a cover pinned and welded on the end. The problem is, you cant take the cover off because it makes the barrel to short. If you want to replace the cover with a brake, you have to have an FFL/SOT person do it, and it has to be pinned/welded back on. The alternative is to make it an SBR, which seems silly for a fraction of an inch. The thread pattern is weird also. 14x1 right hand i think. Its sad, because some sort of brake would make this rifle much more pleasurable to shoot.
 

Fishbed77

New member
I really wish I had the spare cash to pick up one of those VZ2008s that were for sale for $399 a few weeks back. Century build or not - those are nice rifles.
 

armoredman

New member
dakota.potts, the CZ 858 is a Canada only rifle, and comes with pinned 5 round magazines.


Imccrook, it's certainly possible, and with the itty bitty recoil of that little round, in a gaming system the AR-15 is certainly competitive against anything with more "oomph" on the far end. I can't stand that "SPROINNG!" in my ears from the buffer system. :) I've never had a chance to try mine in such a game, but being I don't play games often and wouldn't know the rules, I'd probably place pretty poorly. :)
 
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armoredman

New member
Nah, not interested. :) The M-16A1 ruined it for me in 1984, and I've never felt the slightest urge to try it again.:cool: Besides, I'm not a gamer, so it's no big deal - nobody runs matches out here, and I couldn't afford entrance fees anyway.:eek::p
 

MarkCO

New member
Really?

Arizona has more action/practical style matches, including many carbine, LR and 3Gun matches, than any other state in the Union. Some as low as $10. :D
 

armoredman

New member
Well, in 4 years of living here, I haven't found one on my schedule, and I do sit next to a very nice outdoor range. Besides, as you've continuously stated, all of my equipment is junk, plus I don't want to buy equipment for a game I don't play, so why bother? ;)
I'll just go have fun with my vz-58 and leave the "team tactics" games to the "operators". But do post some videos of the next one - they are fun to watch.:cool:
 

armoredman

New member
Perhaps not quite those words, but things like this,
If they want to play the game, they will sell the AKs or put them back in the closet and get a DI AR-15 pattern rifle.

Short answer, if you want a CZ, sure, get it and have fun with it. If you want to compete in 3Gun, get a DI AR-15.

That pretty much says that what I own isn't good enough for anyone in the game, so it must be junk. :) So I won't bother anyone trying to compete with it, as if I could find a match local/on my schedule anyway. No big deal, it works and works well enough for me, and I am the only person that has to be happy with it. :D
 

MarkCO

New member
Wow, that is a bit super-sensitive, and not even close.

DI AR-15s are better suited to the game of 3Gun. That does not mean what you have is junk by any means. A .308 bolt gun is also not a good choice, nor a revolver, for 3Gun, but that does not mean they are junk either, just not best for the game.
 

dakota.potts

New member
I am more sold on the VZ the more I think about it. Local matches don't tend to go past 200 yards from what I can tell, and I have seen people hit IDPA steel targets from 300 with no sweat. It may not be as easy as an AR, but it will do it.

Between the two what really sold me though was that the price of ammo is much lower for 7.62 and the VZ is known to eat anything you feed it. That means I'll be able to afford much more practice time, which is going to make all the difference.

Will I use it for 3 gun or get an AR first? Who knows? But I'll probably end up with the VZ first and I see no reason not to run it in any games or competitions if I feel comfortable with it.
 

Jim243

New member
I want to compete in 3 gun sometime in 2014 and I'll hopefully be getting enough money soon to fund a rifle if not the shotgun as well.


Unless you have unlimited funds, which it does not sound like, I would take MarkCO's advice and get your self a AR-15 instead of the CZ. There are many reasons to use the equipment that most competitors are using if you are seriously considering this sport.

I shot IDPA with a PT-92 and it does well on scoring but is not as fast off the holster as are some of the shorter pistols used in the match, so it is a CZ 75 P-01 (3.8 inch barrel) for the next match that I go to.

If it is just for fun than forget the 3 gun and get what you want.

Jim
 
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