Curiosity Question

[PT111]

Just out of curiosity I need someone to explain:

Someone buys a $300 P3AT and before it is ever fired complains that it won't chamber a round unless you fully release the slide. Several people immediately reply to send it back to the factory that it should be perfect and that is a known problem that doesn't affect the firing but KT needs to fix it.

Someone buys a $400 Taurus and complains that the magazine rattles when fully loaded. However they haven't had a sincle jam in the first 1,000 rounds. Immediately people respond with what did you expect from Taurus and good luck on getting the noise stopped from that junk or ever getting it back from the factory if you decide to send it off.

Someone buys a $1,200 1911 and says it jammed 10 times in the first 100 rounds. Immediately 35 people respond with how you have spend aother $500 in trying different magazine and ammo combination to find one that will work. After that you need spend another $1,000 to have a gunsmith tune the trigger, bob the hammer, polish the feed ramp and generally rework the entire gun but that is normal for such a finely made weapon as a 1911.

Anyone care to explain this to me?

 

[NGIB]

In simple terms it's a bit of gun snobbery. Folks tend to bash the economical brands more than others. My new Taurus 24/7 Pro had to go back to the factory a week after I bought it for a trigger problem. They had it over 2 months but did return it fixed and functional. Would I rather it had not broken, sure, but I still find no reason to bash Taurus as I have others that have been flawless.

Personally I give all guns and manufacturers the benefit of the doubt as they all make a lemon know and again - the question is do they make it right. I for one am not brand loyal at all and have handguns from many makers - they each serve a purpose. I guess I'll never be a Kool-Aid drinker...

 

[YZR]

Good question and well put. I've often wondered the same thing myself

 

[Magyar]

Your 1st scenario described the reactions to my Llama .45...You hit it pretty good...

 

[Boris Bush]

Even better is to go to some kind of match after said 1911 has had a $1200 "tune up", and fails more than a box stock Glock that cost 1/3 the price of the tune up!


I know I know, YOUR 1911 had a tuneup and is such and such accurate and reliable, blah blah blah...... Fact is I with me own eyes at alot of competitons have seen more 1911s choke on the line than every rack grade gun combined. Typicaly the more spent, the worse it is, and they always have an excuse, not broke in, too much lube, ammo aint tuned to the gun, not enough lube, planets aren't lined up properly, needs new springs, wrong mags, didn't wear lucky belt, wife has the reliable gun today, works better in climate controled indoor ranges, Kid borrowed it and musta did sumtin to it, lint from clothing gumming it up, and alot others I can not remember right now. Then they just stand there, looking at it, like it has a p#&*s growing out the side of it (when it jams).

Then they tell everyone a Kel-tec is a pile of poo because it costs $800.00 less than "quality" starts at............

 

[woad_yurt]

Sit back and get comfortable. I can guarantee that I can treat you to some gun snobbery. Watch this:

I prefer my CZ 52 to any .45 auto. I like the superior ballistics of the 7.62 round, both with FMJ for the range and Wolf hollowpoints for self defense.

Now, we wait....

 

[warrior poet]

Wait... failures in a 1911? You're kidding, right?

In all seriousness, the "tighter" the weapon the more apt it will be to fail. Tighter tolerances (and the better groups they give) comes with a reliability offset. If someone is buying a $1200 plus "race gun" they will have to EXPECT failures. There is a price for precison and accuracy.
That said, if you are buying a 'carry grade' 1911 and it fails, by all means, send it back. The original 1911 design was extremely reliable, but also not a 'tackdriver.' As people push the envelope of accuracy, there will be failures.
Personally, I LOVE the 1911. It FEELS right. It works. More importantly, I DO NOT OWN A RACE GUN, and I never will. Shane said it best, a gun is a tool. To me, a tool must be reliable. I don't think of myself as a 'gun snob.' I use a 1911 because it WORKS for ME. I do carry other things at times (situation dictates) to include a "plastic" Springfield XD40.
For some reason, 1911 has come to mean 'competition gun' these days, leading to much of the aforemetioned "gun snobbery." A reliable 1911 platform can be had for less than $1200. ANY $2000 handgun is NOT going to be reliable. They are SPECIALITY firearms, built for tight groups at the range. Like a Bentley or a Rolls-Royce, they are STATUS symbols. They are not carry pieces, they are firing (most of the time) works of art, and like art, not everyone is willing to pay that much for them. I KNOW I'm not.

BTW, my 'carry' 1911 has not had a single failure (besides two bad rounds) in almost a decade- and countless rounds. I clean and inspect all my firearms like a religion, rotate my magazines, and do "spring maintenance"- allowing them to decompress to FULL expansion- on both the recoil and magazine springs on a regular basis.

 

[old_ironsights]

Some would say that gun snobbery is an attempt to compensate for other...uh...short comings.

 

[okiewita40]

I don't care what brand or caliber one choose's to carry/use/shoot or whatever it is you have a gun for. The main things are these imo. 1)the weapon is safe and reliable. 2) the user is safe and reliable.

All the rest is just cannon fodder.

 

[Boris Bush]

okiewia40

Your first requirement is the reason why we have yet to see a 1911 operator respond that hasn't had a failure. How funny...

 

[shortwave]

+1 warrior poet. same reason gun makers today have loosened specs. on revolvers. could drive tacks with alot of older wheel guns but you had to keep them clean. hey boris, don`t want to get your glockian panties in a wadD) but i did a little search on this and other forums. alot of recommendations from glockettes to newby glock owners about changing barrels, guide rods, trigger work etc. on brand new pistols don`t really want turn this excellent thread into another boring p-ing contest we are all to familiar with. IMHO the closer the tolerances on anything mechanical, the more maintenance required. maintenance performed=smoother,longer lasting and in guns case more accurate. i think alot of better gun makers try to push the envelope and try to make gun to get best of both worlds. hope they develope it someday. i kinda compare it to auto makers trying to make the ideal luxury-sports car. they`re getting close but as of yet 'no cigar'.

 

[buck-hunter]

Buy with in your budget.

 

[Frank Ettin]

I don't know where everyone is eeing all these unreliable 1911s. I have a bunch, including "tight" Les Baers and Nighthawks, and they are all 100% reliable. There aren't pampered either. Several have been used extensively in competition, or for high mileage classes, without a bobble.

Personally, I think it's a myth that tight guns like a Les Baer are necessarily finicky or need special care or don’t work if they’re dirty. Some time ago, I decided to go out to the range with the second Les Baer I bought, a Concept IV.

I bought the gun about 8 or 9 years ago, a year or so after I bought my first, a Premier II. I used the gun on occasion for IPSC – to give the PII some rest. Then when I went to Gunsite about five years ago, I decided to use the CIV. (For IPSC, I had it set up with an S&A magazine well, an extended magazine release and a tungsten guide rod. Before going to Gunsite, I restored it to its original configuration, and trained with it that way for a while to prepare.) All in all, I’d estimate that it’s had about 12,000 to 15,000 rounds through it. (No, I don’t keep detailed records.)

And now back to our story.

So about six weeks previously, I decided to take the CIV to the range. Shot about 200 rounds and came home – put it in the safe. (And no, I’m not always diligent about cleaning my guns.) Then about ten days later, I had time to go to the range for some pistol shooting and took the CIV – since it was already dirty. I ran a bore snake down its gullet a few time, stripped it, wiped what I could reach easily, and put a few drops of Gun Butter here and there. Shot another 200 rounds – came home and put it in the safe. I took myself to the range again a few days later; and yup – took the CIV out again – and yes, it was still dirty. That trip I didn’t even do a once over – just shot another 200 rounds and back to the safe it went.

A little later, a last minute change in plans left me with some time on my hands – so off to the range. I grabbed the CIV – no time to clean it – packed up and off to the range again with a very dirty gun. Now I put another 250 rounds through it – quick 2 and three round strings heating the gun up nicely.

So I’ve fired some 850 rounds with this tight Les Baer that has only has a casual cleaning after the first 200. Guess how many malfunctions I had with this filthy Les Baer. The answer of course is zero, zip, nada, gar keine, rien, etc. The dirty Baer ran absolutely flawlessly, and displayed its customary, first rate accuracy as well.

So tell me again how high grade 1911s are too tight and can’t be relied upon unless they’re pampered, freshly cleaned and oiled. I suspect that it's true that some tight guns will be prone to hiccups. But it's not just a question of how tight the gun is. It's a question of how it's put together and fitted. If it's fitted properly it can be tight, extremely accurate, utterly reliable and not finicky.

 

[Murdock]

I'll have to paraphrase Mark Twain, as I don't remember how the quote reads, but he wrote to the effect that one of the better retailing scams was to charge more for your widget than you competition, because people would naturally assume yours was better because it cost more.

I used to show up at local IPSC matches with my homemade Colt/Essex, and ran it against guys with 1911's that had sent their pistols to some of the big-named 'smiths of 15 years ago for enhancement. These were guns that had $1,200 in gunsmithing applied to them. I beat one guy -- a Bianchi Cup veteran -- who forgot to turn on his space gun red dot during the man-on-man shoot off. Other guys were easy to beat because they couldn't keep their guns running reliably, maybe because of the enhancements.

 

[Desslock]

Caspian LaRocca 1911. Never, and I mean NEVER a malfunction of any kind, either with FMJ or hollowpoints. And, at the risk of getting crucified, I use super el-cheapo $10 stamped steel mags. Not all higher end 1911's are ca-ca.

My wife's P3AT has also been stone reliable, but we bought it used, so, technically it could have been already reworked. Who knows?

 

[kristop64089]

I often wonder the same things. I believe that one of the biggest reasons is what Old Ironsights stated.
It is overcompensation.

I had a beautiful Sig 220 2-tone, that had the WORST finish of any gun I had ever seen...so bad in fact I got rid of it. It was BRAND NEW. I was recommended by all to keepit. When I called Sig And asked them to repair the finish under warranty, they refused because it was a "finish" issue.
I sold it.

I had the same problem with a Kel-Tec once....the refinished at no cost, at all, to me.
Still have the Kel-Tec (actually sold it to my brother)

My point is, I don't care how much your gun cost, if the maker won't stand behind it, I don't want it. Service after the fact is almost,but not as, important as reliability/functionality.

If the gun is not going to function right in the first place, and they won't repair it, right,(or if they try to make a mint on ya) what good is the gun?

 

[PT111]

I just want everyone to know that I am not dissing any gun but just how the proponents and opponents of guns react to a question about certain brands that they love or hate. I have a Hi-Poiint .380 that is blocky, ugly, cheap and whatever other negative remark you want to make about it but it is absolutely reliable. Pull the trigger and it goes bang every time. I am sure there are some that are already puking over that statement but every gun manufacture is going to have some bad ones and 1911 models are no exception. Just the reaction to them and how funny those reactions are at times.

 

[shortwave]

fiddletown, congrats on owning a pistol such as that. i also agree with your statement on proper fitting. with that, i will also say again that when a gun maker is trying to manufacture the close tolerance pistols, its easier to make a mistake. i guarantee you that the tolerances on the pistol you own are not identical to the very next Premier II that was built. maybe very close but not identical. every machinists has a + or - tolerance. could it be possible that the minus tolerance be to close to building a gun that would ftf if not kept clean? again we`re talking about high end custom guns.

 

[BigJimP]

I guess you're implying that a $400 Taurus is a great gun / never fails - and that someone who spent $ 1,200 on a 1911 ( if it fails, is wasting their money).

I think I understand your point - what is the least amount to spend on a gun that will perform ? But there are a lot of other issues here - feel of the gun, sights, trigger, etc. For most double action / stryker fired guns - in general - the triggers have a lot of creep, wobble, break a little unevenly, reset issues, etc vs a well tuned 1911 trigger which is a very different feel ( but on some 1911's the triggers are crap too ). But my point is there is a huge difference in the frame, the grip safety on a 1911, the thumb safey, and especially the trigger .... and if someone likes a 1911 ( for all of those reasons ) no Taurus is going to meet those criteria ( or Glock, Beretta, Sig, etc ). Yes, a quality 1911 is more expensive - but a well tuned 1911 - maybe right out of a good shop like Wilson Combat will cost you about $ 2,500 - or an entry level 1911 that you had cleaned up - can all be very reliable guns. Is a 1911 worth $ 2,500 to you - you have to decide. To me it is / so that's where I spend most of my semi-auto handgun money. But I also like some of the DA/SA guns like the Sig 226 - I don't think the triggers are as good as a good 1911 - but I like the decocker idea, the fit, feel etc of the Sig ( especially in all stainless ) ....but again to each his own. If you like the Taurus - buy it. I'm confident my guns from Wilson Combat will go down in the family for at least 2 more generations - and I like to shoot them now - and frankly that's part of my decision when I buy a gun as well - but again to each his own.

 

[onesiphorus]

I have a stock Kimber Utra-Carry II without any malfunctions, an RIA A1 with no malfunctions and a Taurus PT1911 with no malfunctions. I've owned and sold 3 malfuntioning Colts. I like my Glock 30, my Ruger SR-9, my S&W M&P Compact 9 and my Bersa Thunder 380. Never had a malfunction in any of them. If I was in a gun fight, I would prefer my Russian Saiga .223 with 30 round mag. It doesn't malfunction either. Why do all the guns I own not malfunction? Because I get rid of the ones that do!