Critters, Population Dynamics and Morals

[Art Eatman]

Cato hit on some good beginnings in another thread. Thought I'd amplify.

I've made the point, occasionally, that a Birder can get a big thrill from just observing a member of a rare and endangered species. OTOH, a hunter needs a healthy population in any game species, in order that there be a surplus from which he can take an animal.

(I define "surplus" in this context to mean that amount of a species over and above some basis required for safe and healthy continuation of that species.)

To a great extent, large predators and homo sap don't co-exist, which is why there are more of us than of them. We're better killers than they are. Absent "natural" predators (a misnomer if ever I heard one.), then homo sap is stuck with the job of controlling wildlife populations among certain species. In North America this includes mostly deer, certain waterfowl, and such as prairie dogs. (I'm generalizing, okay? ) Most other species won't overpopulate their habitat.

Does this seem like reasonable background?

Let's work this over, first, before going on to PDogs in particular, okay?

Art

 

[C.R.Sam]

Most other species won't overpopulate their habitat

Most.
Then we have the ones that seem overly dense because the habitat shrank around them untill their existance becomes marginal.

And the critters that seem to ignore the encrochments of man and continue to spread, through and around urban areas. Such as the armadillo, opossums all the way to Minnesota, wild turkeys all over etc.

Lot of subject under that title Art.

Sam, confused as a cockroach in a ro om wi th str obe li ght.

 

[Art Eatman]

No argument, Sam, but it's a lot easier, overall, if we sorta key on certain species. Otherwise, we'd have more words than "Gone With The Wind" or "Atlas Shrugged".

Art

 

[C.R.Sam]

Or Moby Richard ? The paucity of white cetacions is notable.

 

[Art Eatman]

"Paucity". You been playin' in the dictionary again? I sorta favor "dearth", myownself. But "paucity" is good.

One of the hardest things to get across to non-hunters around the U.S. is that no game species is suffering as a result of hunting. Most game species populations are on the rise, as a result of hunters' efforts and money.

Try to make city folks understand that the mortality rate among dove and quail, with no hunting at all, is around 80% each year. With hunting, it's around 80%, each year.

And hunters are the only group whose efforts result in improvements to habitat and thus the gross populations. Almost all other "we love wildlife" groups spend their money on advertising for more money, or for lobbying against hunting--which actually hurts the health of species.

Art

 

[C.R.Sam]

Prime example.....ALL of the Elk in Arizona are here as a result of massive effforts by Sportsmen/Hunters.

All of the Ring Neck Pheasant in the Americas are here for the same reason.

Many species of game fish the same.

Introduction and management. Population control. Increasing the overall health of the species.

Hunter bucks and concern at work.

Sam

 

[Art Eatman]

What got me thinking about all this was Cato's comment, "We Europeans killed all wolves, bears, coyotes, eagles, etc. (E)nvy the USA for their great nature and hope that you aren't as stupid!"

Of course, during the 18th and 19th centuries, we indeed were that stupid. Meat-hunting caused most of our problems. First was the almost unheard of freedom for "peasants" to hunt; next was purely the need for protein. The demise of the Passenger Pigeon and the dramatic reduction in waterfowl numbers in the northeastern U.S. came from meat-hunting, as example.

(The near-demise of the bison was deliberate federal policy, to destroy the main food supply of the Plains Indians.)

Raising livestock, even today, means some degree of protection from predators. Nationwide, we're in a reasonable balance, seems like. We could probably enlarge the grizzly population in the lower 48 states, but that would mean more hazard to people as well as livestock. Re-introduction of wolves isn't likely to be as large a problem as some ranchers claim. The problem there, of course, is that the pro-wolf people include too many who seem to think that all ranching is inherently evil.

All in all, though, it took a century to recreate reasonably healthy populations of certain species. Deer, turkey and eagle come readily to mind. Plus others, of course.

And more to do!

Art

 

[C.R.Sam]

There is quite a bit of applicable discussion on this thread. http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=111085

Sam

 

[Art Eatman]

Yeah, browsed through that one. Again, it's a case of some folks don't have the knowledge to understand the dynamics of a system--the interactions of local people with wildlife, and the animals' needs as to habitat.

I still believe the worst enemies of wildlife were the author of "Bambi"--Felix Salter--and Walt Disney. Unintended consequences, of course. But when you attribute human emotions to animals, and try too hard to anthromorphize animals' behavior, "true believers" get in the way of reality. Witness PETA, for instance.

Art

 

[UltimaThule]

Hey, Ishmael, regarding those cetaceans, do the white ones taste any differently from the regular ones?

Is this a private conversation, or can others take part?
Interesting topic. I come from a European country where we still have wolf, bear, eagles etc, although it was a close call for some species. Wolf in particular was hunted to near extinction, resulting in an explosion in moose populations. My late grandfather told me that seeing a moose was something to talk about at the beginning of the last century. Today hunting quotas in that part of the country is roughly one moose per 100 acres of forest. Practically all of this is "peasant" hunting, there has never been any other kind in this country. BTW, recent studies of Norwegian wolves fitted with radio collars and GPS recievers show that they kill twice as many moose as previously found in North American studies.

But looking at the title, population dynamics and morals, I feel like going back to the previously mentioned cetaceans. The official position of the Norwegian government, regardless of political shade, is one of "sustainable harvest" of natural resources. This includes at present the management of the minke whale population off our coast. This seems to upset a lot of people, except of course Green Peace, who uses it for every cent it's worth: "They are murdering the Whale-god, send us money!" Africans I have met are aware of this, when discussing wildlife management they will tell a Norwegian that "the elephant is the whale of Africa" - threatened in some places, plentiful in other. (And of course there are some 200 species of whale, not "the Whale" of the "environmental" organizations.) Seals are somewhat the same, I believe I can actually get arrested if I travel to the US wearing a seal-skin coat. Seals will definitely overpopulate, the result being depletion of fish stocks, then starvation and disease in the seal population. Is it immoral to kill animals with big, black eyes?

I believe in healthy populations of all species (biological diversity, I think is the current political term), and I was delighted when biologists recently found wolf-poop a mile from where I live - less than 20 miles from downtown Oslo. That means there is still some wilderness left out there. But we still need to manage some game populations, anything else would be immoral.

And if you're interested in a real big game gun, check this out.
Still made by Raufoss, the same company that makes the multipurpose .50 BMG round.
http://www.heritage.nf.ca/environment/wh_i6.html

 

[Art Eatman]

Any number can play!

At the time of the colonization of North America, hunting in England was pretty much restricted to the Upper Classes. I have read that part of the disgruntlement which led to the French Revolution was the effort on the part of the nobility to restrict hunting from the peasantry...

"Is it immoral to kill animals with big, black eyes?" Nope. Very much Politically Incorrect, of course. Sorta reinforces my comments about emotion vs. rational thought and knowledge.

, Art

 

[C.R.Sam]

"sustainable harvest"

Key.
Thank you Ultima Thule.
............................................................................................
Flashback to a different continent.

"Honey, come quick, there's a moose in the hoose."
"Don't you mean a mouse dear ?"
"No honey, a big honkin MOOOSE."

Sam

 

[UltimaThule]

Sam, are you confusing my accent with someone else's?

Largest number of moose observed at the same time on the sundeck of my parents' house is three. My mother is a bit uncomfortable at the thought of running into any of them at night. She nearly had a heart attack last autumn, coming home from work late at night. She was walking towards the door and looking in her purse for her keys at the same time when she suddenly walked face first into something very large, warm and furry. Turned out one of the neighbour's horses was AWOL, leaning against the front door to get shelter from the rain.

 

[Pigshooter]

Hunters take the flak for too many things.

It doesn't take much effort to find references about "the white devil hunting the buffalo to extinction". But the truth is, Brucellosis killed the largest portion, by far.

 

[Art Eatman]

Pigshooter, I won't argue against brucellosis, but stories of the final days of the great herds don't mention disease. We do know that the hide-hunters' efforts were supported and at least partially subsidized by the government.

The use of the word "hunter" in "buffalo hunter" has carried forward to this day, even there is no relationship whatsoever as to motivation and behavior. That was killing for money, on the part of the shooters. There was no "hunting" as we know it today in a world of free-ranging deer and coyotes. We live in a world of limits, seasons and multitudes of other regulations. These restrictions, largely instituted by the hunting fraternity, have contributed greatly to our present abundance of game.

Art

 

[Dave B]

Pigshooter, can you post a reference to your claim:

But the truth is, Brucellosis killed the largest portion, by far.

db

 

[dZ]

in the olde daze the Canadian Geese were harrassed out of populated areas

now they are permitted to breed & return unmolested to any patch of grass.
I saw a pair looking for a nest site near a highway in central PA last weekend

100 years ago they would have been a quick lunch to a fox or a coyote

now they are overpopulating to vermin status

last summer i saw a pathetic sight
a goose had been hit in the central thru lanes of I-270
its mate was wandering the lanes honking

a goose strike at 65 MPH is a Darwin moment

dZ

 

[Art Eatman]

dZ, that's why I made my comment about Salter and Disney. The sort of thinking they've engendered--an unintended consequence--has led to the emotions which then lead to unrealistic laws and ordinances concerning wildlife.

Among other bits and pieces, geese in some locales have adopted power-plant cooling-water ponds as winter habitat and resist continuing southern migration. A local city then passes an ordinance forbidding "harassment" of these darling creatures, and they transmogrify into "feathered rats".

It's reminiscent of the use of the Marine Mammal anti-harassment law, used in San Francisco to justify not running sea lions from marinas. This rendered some marinas useless and the lions destroyed boats by climbing aboard as "sundeck" sites. The intent of the law, of course, was to protect animals in their normal habitat--which didn't at all faze either the various animal-rights groups or their tame judge.

Art

 

[Freedom in theSkies]

In the arctic nesting grounds of the Snow Goose, Greater Canada Goose and Lesser Canada Goose, they have absolutely destroyed their own habitat. The numbers are so great now, that they are causing damage to the tundra that will take up to a hundred years to come back, if left alone. Could this be due to the natural predator populations decreasing? Or could it be something as simple as the price of steel shotshells?- Possibly a contributing factor?
Thoughts?

 

[Art Eatman]

Freedom, didn't this problem begin some ten years or so back? I sorta remember some articles about the problem.

Probably the most objective information could be supplied by Ducks Unlimited. Their efforts, their biologists, spend the most time in such "looking at". IMO, the USF&WS should be knowledgeable, but they've become so politicized I don't trust their objectivity.

Art