Criteria for LEO Service Pistols

[jdscholer]

Just wondering what is considered minimum cartridge standard for LEO carry guns these days. How about capacity standards. I heard a rumor that standard nines don't cut the mustard any more. Any regional differences?

We're in Oregon.

I'm interested in actual regs, not just opinion. jd

 

[2damnold4this]

The FBI recommends the 9mm: link

 

[Dragline45]

I heard a rumor that standard nines don't cut the mustard any more.

Quite the opposite. More and more departments are dropping their .40's for 9mm. Industry experts have concluded that when stopping threats the .40 is no more effective than the 9mm, and the 9mm not only is softer shooting allowing faster and more accurate followup shots, but gives you a higher capacity in the same platform. Even the FBI, who are the reason the .40 round even exists, are moving to 9mm.

 

[Ibmikey]

I keep hearing "more departments are dropping the .40 for 9mm" yet i know of no such mass exodus. Most police organizations require studies and future budgeting to make such an expensive change, the bean counters demand factual reasons for such a change and how it will benefit them with future budgets. I was responsible for our dept. moving to 9mm and later the .40 which they have now carried for approximately twenty five years.
Ps: i own lots of 9mm's and no 40's.

 

[lee n. field]

Criteria for LEO Service Pistols

Some balance of shoots standard ammo (9, .45, .357 sig, .45 acp), goes bang every time, armourer support is available, and it's cheap.

 

[2damnold4this]

There are some departments switching from 40 to 9mm
link

link2


I don't know if the trend will increase since the FBI came out in favor of the nine. As more departments replace aging sidearms, we will see if the trend continues.

 

[Tom Servo]

I heard a rumor that standard nines don't cut the mustard any more. Any regional differences?

These really aren't the right questions.

The criteria for service pistols are numerous and varied. There isn't a single standard. Reliability and a proven cartridge are important, but so are price, the availability of parts, and the costs of training armorers.

 

[jdscholer]

Thanks for the response and info. I found it hard to believe that the beloved 9x19 might not be considered adequate. Still seems like a damned near perfect cartridge, used in many excellent platforms. jd

 

[Dragline45]

I keep hearing "more departments are dropping the .40 for 9mm" yet i know of no such mass exodus. Most police organizations require studies and future budgeting to make such an expensive change, the bean counters demand factual reasons for such a change and how it will benefit them with future budgets.

Generally alot of these PD's follow suit of the FBI, and use their studies since they put so much time and money into them, hence the reason so many PD's adopted the .40 after the FBI did. With the FBI moving back to 9mm, I wouldn't be surprised if that is one of the reasons many PD's are doing the same, especially with so many industry experts praising the 9mm over the .40 these days.

 

[Model12Win]

The .40 S&W is simply more effective than the 9mm, offering excellent stopping power. The powers that be, however, are drawn to the cheaper 9mm ammo... it's all about $$$, not about real performance.

No real LEO that I know would ever choose a 9mm over a .40.

 

[Tom Servo]

No real LEO that I know would ever choose a 9mm over a .40.

That's interesting. I know several who are pleased at the change. They get a cartridge that's still plenty effective (the Miami shootout was 30 years ago, folks), they get a couple extra rounds capacity, and it has milder recoil.

 

[James K]

Don't overlook training costs and PR issues. A pistol that is overly complex or that requires extensive training is a poor choice even though it may otherwise be acceptable. We "gun nuts" might love seventeen way safety switches and triggers adjustable to a hundredth of an ounce, but "pull-bang" is best for training, which is why the Glock is so popular.

And while the revolver vs. auto pistol issue has long been settled, use of rounds perceived by the community as exotic or inhumane may also be rejected or need a lot of PR work to gain acceptance.

Jim

 

[Dragline45]

The .40 S&W is simply more effective than the 9mm

On paper sure, but in the real world it's not. Studies have shown the .40 is no more effective at stopping threats than the 9mm, and industry experts back this up. Most of the top trainers in the industry personally use 9mm themselves, that should say alot. With both being equal in it's ability to stop threats, I would say the 9mm with it's lower recoil allowing faster and more accurate followup shots is the more effective round. Throw in the higher capacity and you have a clear winner.

No real LEO that I know would ever choose a 9mm over a .40.

That's funny, my buddy who is an LEO, a former Marine with several tours under his belt, a few of which were with MARSOC, says he would rather use his Glock 17 for duty than his issued Glock 22. If he's not a real LEO, I don't know what constitutes one..

My best friends older brother who is also an LEO and was honored as Boston's officer of the year also prefers 9mm over .40, and all of his Glock's are 9mm. Again, if he's not a real LEO, I don't know who is.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

I'm interested in actual regs, not just opinion.

Any "actual regs" will be departmental regulations, not laws or statutes or ordinances, and departmental regulations regarding issue and/or authorized firearms generally are based on the opinion(s) of one or two senior officers. What gets issued or authorized doesn't just vary regionally, it varies from one town to the next. Just around here, I know one local department issues SIGs in .45 ACP, several issue Glocks in 9mm, and a few others issue .40 S&W in one firearm or another. Awhile back I know the state police used .357 SIG, but I think that may have changed recently.

 

[Tucker 1371]

Most agencies will not let their officers carry anything off duty or as a back up gun that is not at least a .380 ACP. FWIW

I wouldn't imagine an agency not using a caliber other than 9, .357 Sig, .40, 10mm, .45 ACP or .45 GAP. Unless they're still issuing revolvers, not sure if there's an agency that still does that but I wouldn't be shocked to learn that there are one or two that do.

The .40 S&W is simply more effective than the 9mm, offering excellent stopping power. The powers that be, however, are drawn to the cheaper 9mm ammo... it's all about $$$, not about real performance.

No real LEO that I know would ever choose a 9mm over a .40.

Pistol stopping power boils down to two things and two things only IMO, shot placement and luck. There is no difference in "stopping power" between 9, .40, and .45. The only advantage I see .40 having over 9 is penetration through auto glass and other barriers. And that can be a huge liability in any other LE scenario.

 

[ftttu]

Our policy for uniformed officers is any Glock .40 except for the G27 which can only be carried off duty or as a backup.

What is strange is our policy doesn't acknowledge the officers carrying other makes and calibers. They are unofficially grandfathered, which I still don't understand since policy is so important due to lawsuits and other issues.

We still have officers carrying .38/.357 and 9mm, but their numbers are dwindling.

Since I'm on gun forums and am following the FBI's switch, I brought it up to our range officer. When I ask him, he tells me there is nothing about 9mm even being proposed, and he doesn't appear interested himself.

I wouldn't switch unless I had to but I wouldn't go down fighting since I'm more convinced that 9mm has become more effective, and...because I'd get a new gun which is always fun.

FYI, we can carry any make .380 but only as a backup or off duty.

 

[seeker_two]

The "no effective difference between 9mm and .40S&W" argument can go both ways. A lot of departments may stay with .40S&W just because they have no reason to trade guns or get out of their ammo contracts. Remember, trading out for another sidearm involves expenses other than guns or ammo.....holsters, ammo pouches, magazines, etc.

 

[PA32Mark]

Well, I've been a real LEO for almost 40 years now, and I'll stick with my 9mm over a .40 for a lot of reasons. Might consider a .45 over a 9mm though, but I have carried a 9mm on duty and off for so long now (since 1989, when we switched over from .38 revolvers) I'm pretty comfortable with it.

 

[ftttu]

We purchase our own weapons but many agencies provide them for their officers. Because of that, the sky is the limit for makes, models, caliber and load used.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

We purchase our own weapons but many agencies provide them for their officers. Because of that, the sky is the limit for makes, models, caliber and load used.

How does the above statement coexist with your earlier post?

Our policy for uniformed officers is any Glock .40 except for the G27 which can only be carried off duty or as a backup.

The earlier statement sure doesn't sound like a "sky's the limit" policy. It sounds a lot like a Glock-only policy.