CRF a marketing Myth?

onemsumba

New member
I put some Azoom snap caps in my Rem 700 30-06 ADL the other day for practicing trigger pull and breathing. After doing that awhile I turned the rifle upside down, side ways and every which way and fed the azooms from the mag to the chamber. I couldn’t get it to drop the round out or miss feed nothing. By the time the round is fully stripped from the magazine it is so far in to the chamber that it can’t fall out… So at least as far as feeding goes I don’t see that CRF has an advantage over push feed.

I’ve heard the advantage comes when trying to unload a fired round and then reload quickly, but am skeptical about that as well…

Maybe someone with more experience regarding CRF and the claw extractor can weigh in.
 

atblis

New member
On average

Here's a post on thehighroad.org that seems to address that.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=60181

Part of it is the extraction. Remington extractors are pretty weak, but for the average user will probably never fail.

I wouldn't worry about it at all (I've never had a push feed fail). If hunting dangerous game, you should be using a double rifle anyways.
 

tulsamal

New member
By the time the round is fully stripped from the magazine it is so far in to the chamber that it can’t fall out

Can't "fall out." That shows you actually know what the problem is. That round is sort of "floating" for part of its travel. If you bobbled your stroke while trying to run around a tree with a large African animal in hot pursuit, do you want "floating" or do you want controlled? If you start to chamber a round and push forward until it pops out of the magazine and then change your mind, fall down, whatever, then what? The round hasn't been captured by the extractor yet. You start pulling that bolt backwards and you will get nothing but air. The round may or may not fall out. But then you start pushing it forward again and you pick up the next round. That's not going to work.

When it comes to a dangerous big game rifle, you want to think of every possible thing Murphy could throw at you. You don't play the percentages. As much as possible, you eliminate possible problem areas. Whole different thing from being on a deer or elk hunt. Why do you think the double rifles were so popular?

I love and use Remington 700 rifles. But I wouldn't carry one to Africa to whack something that could bite me!

Gregg
 

Jseime

New member
Well I've had a push-feed savage and a controlled round feed Ruger M77mkII and ill probably never buy a push feeder again as a deer rifle. Thats just me talking though... different strokes for different folks.
 

tINY

New member


CRF was first seen on the Mauser. In the heat of battle, a double feed is a bad thing. Lions and Cape Buffalo are the same kind of stress.

That said, the couple of comercial Mausers that I have handled were very smooth. I never liked the Win70 rifles too much - but a lot of that is personal preference and bias.

CFR, however, isn't just marketing hype. BUT, most people don't need it.



-tINY

 

BigEd63

New member
Unless I lived with my rifle as much as military snipers* do I'd opt for a CRF rifle if goining harm's way.

* BTW-They did seem to make do with Remington 700 type actions with no troubles I've heard about.:cool:
 

Dave Haven

New member
Uh-huh. And military snipers are hunting the absolute most dangerous game on the planet. (The kind that can kill you from the same range that you can kill them.)
 

Cheese

New member
I don't like the appendage on the bolt that Mauser style extractors require. I like the clean solid look on push feed bolts.

Ironically I shy away from the "more moving parts" thing as it usually diminishes reliability. Clearly (before everyone jumps on me) that is not the case with the controlled round feed extractor. It is the more reliable choice by reputation.

It would be nice to be able to gently eject unfired rounds but for the sake of clean lines and preference, I can be a little more carefull ejecting brass or loaded rounds.
 

DPris

Member Emeritus
The importance of controlled round feeding is directly related to the intended use of the rifle.
The Remington extraction & ejection system is simply not as strong or as reliable as a Mauser system with large claw extractor & mechanical ejector.
The push-feed system can bobble a round on feeding, under certain circumstances.
For deer hunting, the Remington (just to use it as a common example) works fine. For most non-dangerous game a push-feed is perfectly viable.
But, consider this- If you're within 50 yards of a charging bear, rhino, lion, etc., PF vs CRF does become an issue.
With a PF action in a typical hunting scenario, if you miss the shot because the action didn't cycle (on the second shot, assuming the first didn't connect) on either extraction or feeding, you just lose the meat. If you're being charged and the action lets you down, the meat you lose will be your own.
That's the difference & the reason why most people who understand it use a CRF rifle in situations where subsequent shots may literally mean their own life or death.
And, you can't cite police & military use of the Remington, widespread though it is, as justification for saying PF vs CRF doesn't matter.
Think about it- Police & military users are snipers. Snipers are long range. Snipers use cover. Snipers are stationary. Snipers HIDE! Snipers are not in immediate danger of being charged, by either man or beast. Snipers typically have time on their side in setting up a shot. Snipers place their primary emphasis on the first shot (where PF & CRF are equal), whereas those up close place a roughly equal importance on follow-up shot capability. A sniper also has time on his side, at least regarding personal danger, in getting off a second or subsequent shot if necessary.
The two uses are apples & oranges.
If you need to have a dependable rifle for maximum bolt-action reliability under a wide range of conditions that include relatively close threats from dangerous game, the CRF is widely recognized as the better way to go.
I've had a Remington ejector plunger freeze up solid in the bolt, the rifle would not eject brass, the gun had to be either turned upside down to drop it out or the empty brass had to be picked out with thumb & finger. If I had some big claws coming after me, that's unacceptable. If it involved just watching a buck run away laughing, it'd merely be annoying.
Like any other firearm decision, use determines choice.
Denis
 

garryc

New member
From what I've read the big problem in africa is a talc like powder that gums things up. I've also heard of problems in africa and alaska with remmy triggers. Aparently, they get some ice or crud in them and lock up. I've also heard of ejector plungers locking up. I love my rems but I think I'd go with a CRF rifle for dangerous work.
 

Cheese

New member
There are just so few reports of failure to warrant worrying about the .01% what if. I have never had a problem under any situation. I have followed DLP shootings of bears in Alaska for 20 years, and can recall no instance where CRF would have (or could have) saved a life. Yes it is less likely to malfunction in that respect than a push-feed. If I was a guide for bears I still wouldn't worry about it, let alone just a once in a while bear hunter.
 

DPris

Member Emeritus
Everybody makes their own decisions. I don't care which way you go, I'm just giving my opinion in response to the earlier question. :)
That .01% failure rate may mean nothing to you, especially if you're not a member of the .01% Club.
All it takes is once (as it did for me) to make you reflect a bit.
I currently have a nice little Model Seven up for sale. Beautiful rifle, hate to let it go, really. But, I don't hunt any more, and I simply don't trust it in dangerous game country as much as I do a couple of Rugers I have. For me, that's the decider. If I'm in the mountains, I have a reliable rifle along just for GPs. I'm not saying the Remington isn't reliable, I just feel more comfortable with a Mauser system in a defensive boltgun. My choice, doesn't have to be yours.
Main thing is to understand the difference between the two systems, and if it doesn't matter to you, it's your gun. :)
Denis
 

Cheese

New member
Exactly! I totally agree. There are way too many people that let others make up their mind for them. That is why I posted the "for the green" article that is up. If folks took half the time they use to solicit other peoples opinions to form their own themselves by getting an education about rifles, we would have very few "what should I do" posts. I have yet to find a rifle with all the attributes I like. It does not exist to my knowledge.
 

DPris

Member Emeritus
Briefly entertained the idea of selling off half the inventory & having a custom built boltgun done just so I could get everything I wanted in one, then gave it up.
Probably too late in life to justify it.
Denis
 

onemsumba

New member
I posted the "for the green" article that is up

Good post cheese, I've read that article several times through.
It should be made a sticky along with a link to an AR-15 forum and a line to a post on first rifle to buy, and a link to a post about which semi auto .22 and which bolt .22, which mil surp to start with et al....

the article referenced above is also interesting though dated.

Point of my post was to renew discussion on this topic, as its a good one for debate.

also like most things it seems that things break when taken to the extreme.

Examples

Rem ejectors and .416's seems to me they were probably designed for 30'06. the big cal's are probably pushing their design envelope.

Africa = defination of extreme
 
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