Cowboy Style Rifle and Shotgun Suggestions

[iracodypatterson]

Hey Everyone,
I have been slowly adding to my collection of old west like firearms and would like some input. I currently have two Uberti Cattleman 1873s in .357/38, and I recently picked up a Puma M-92 carbine lever action in .357/38. What I am looking for now is a shotgun (12 or 20 gauge) and a rifle caliber rifle (38-55, 45-70, etc). With the shotgun, I would prefer a double barrel but am open to any suggestions. As for the rifle, I am thinking I would like to stick to something more along the lines of the single shot hunting/sniper (like a “Sharp’s Long Range” clone) rather than the lever action. In addition, I would preferably like to get brand new clones because price is somewhat of an issue.

In addition, has anybody had any experience with the Taurus “Thunderbolt” pump action rifles?

Thank you in advance.

 

[stinger]

Is this strictly for collecting, or for shooting? Are you interesting in CAS?

As far as the .45-70, I think Uberti makes a pretty good clone, and there are certainly others based on your budget. Of course, you can really spend some serious money on a Sharps depending on what options you want.

The double barrel is really the quientessential western shotgun, there are many different types, and I'd figure you want to get a SxS. Again, your budget really dictates what you want. The usage will also come into play. CAS shooting would be a lot more shooting than you might normally do (at least in my experience.)

The Taurus rifle does not have a good reputation for reliability. Of course, I'm not aware of anyone with a new one.

 

[iracodypatterson]

Oh, sorry, duh moment (I have a lot of those...). I am looking for shooting and getting into a CAS type organization so I do not want or need anything pricey that has the potential to become a collector's item. I will probably wear them out long before they get old enough to see that day.

I thought that for shotguns you were limited to a single shot, side by side, or an exposed hammer pump action. The ONLY exposed hammer shotguns I have ever seen were WWII era trench guns, which I always thought, were too modern. I do prefer the side by sides simply because I think they are the best looking.

Was there ever such a thing as a pump action rifle back in the “Wild West” days? I know Taurus claims that their thunderbolts are period authentic so you can use them in CAS events but I have never seen a pump action rifle of any caliber from that period.

Thank you for your help. I am very sorry for my duh moment. I would say it will not happen again; however, I promise you it will and probably in the near future.

 

[stinger]

You may use exposed hammers on either doubles or '97's. Exposed hammers on doubles look cool, but you would definitely lose time, even if you ought to pick up bonuses for the cool factor. The top guns use '97's and really know how to work 'em. And, yes, it is the only pumpgun allowed.

The smoothest double I've seen is an Ithaca that was worked over by a good smith, but I'm not sure of the model. I use a Stoeger coach WITHOUT exposed hammers because I just learned how to walk and chew gum, and don't need the extra step slowing me down . Most other doubles that I've seen are Stoegers as well.

I'm not too familiar with the history of pumpguns, so I can't provide any sources, but my understanding is that there were pump rifles in the late 19th century. I'm not sure how authentic the Taurus is, but I do know that it does not have a good reputation.

Have you been to a Cowboy match yet?

 

[Hafoc]

Colt made the Lightning pump rifle from the 1880s to the early 1900s. According to my old Flayderman's Guide, the Medium Frame was the first introduced, in 1884. It was produced until 1902. That's enough to qualify it for use in cowboy action shoots.

The Taurus Thunderbolt, Beretta Gold Rush, and another I'm forgetting are replicas of the Lightning. Now, my understanding of the original Lightning was that Colt always did have their problems getting the things to work properly. The repro manufacturers seem to have the same problems.

I had a Taurus Thunderbolt myself. Once only I ran into a particularly heinous jam the design can deal you; it feeds two cartridges at once, one over the cartridge lifter and one beneath it. When this happens she's well and truly jammed, and disassembling the rifle is the only cure. Oh well. Disassembling it enough to get the tubular magazine apart isn't all that hard.

The design is also very picky about cartridge length. If you web search you'll find several discussions about that. But once you learn its ways and/or get the action slicked up, I hear the Thunderbolt can be pretty good.

I could have had mine cleaned up, I suppose, but instead I sold it. I had discovered that its pump action is somewhat annoying by design. It has to be that way for safety reasons, but it still made me dislike the rifle.

One problem was that the short fore-aft motion of the pump gun didn't give a great mechanical advantage the way the longer throw of a lever does. That could make the action balky at times.

The biggest thing was trouble unloading the weapon. Lever action rifles let you shuck cartridges through the action without lowering the hammer on each cartridge. The Thunderbolt didn't. The only way I ever found to unload it was to rack in a cartridge, CAREFULLY lower the hammer, rack the action again, and so on.

This was especially annoying when I loaded up some semi-wadcutter cartridges which were supposedly within the proper length limits, but didn't have the round-nosed bullet the Thunderbolt expected. They wouldn't feed into the chamber, and there was no other way to get them out. Did I mention the Thunderbolt was VERY sensitive to cartridge length? Oh well. Disassembling the rifle far enough to get the tubular magazine apart is not that hard, and by this time I was getting good at it.

After I sold the Taurus, I bought a Marlin in .45 Colt. Nothing much to say about the Marlin, really. Stock doesn't hurt, sights show up, lever pulls easily, cartridges feed, pull the trigger and she goes bang, hole appears in target. Quite unexciting, really. But I am NOT complaining. Nope, not at all.

 

[jojosdad]

My Thunderbolt is back at Taurus for the 2nd time. :barf:
First time was for the mag tube becoming disconnected from the barrel, had it for 1 week and a cartridge jammed big time on the elevator on the 5th shot at the range. Had to carefully pry it forward with a plastic toothbrush handle.
It's going on the market when it gets back.
OTOH - it's a really nice looking gun, and the action sure is smooth when it's empty.

 

[stinger]

If any manufacturer came up with a dependable pump they could make a lot of money in this sport. I'd guess all top guns would switch over because they are faster than leverguns.

I'd keep shooting my levers...

 

[iracodypatterson]

Wow, Thank you very much for all the input and information. It sounds like maybe I should forget about the pump-action rifle and just get another lever action. Puma (the manufacture of mine) have the regular style with a 20” barrel (which is what I have) then they have a 16” barrel carbine with the large-loop-lever for about the same price as the Thunderbolt. I had heard that the Thunderbolts were sensitive to cartridge length else where as well but, your stories make me wonder if there is anything it will accept. I heard the same story with the Puma M-92 as well (especially with feeding the .38 specials) but I have not had a seconds trouble with mine.

I do not remember which organization’s website I was looking at but one of them said the shotgun HAD to have exposed hammer(s) whether it was single shot, double barrel or pump. I am taking it that is not the norm? One of those Stoeger coach guns is exactly what I was picturing though (minus the exposed hammer part). Not that I am complaining, I am doing good to be able to walk and chew gum most days so the less operating parts there are, the happier I am. Thank you for the input.

What would you guys say would be the best rifle caliber? I like the smaller calibers because I can shoot them longer without getting sore (38 special, will probably end up with a .20 gauge shotgun, etc) but I have no clue about the traditional rifle calibers. 38-55, 45-70. 45-90, 44-40... I honestly have no clue about any of them. I do have an original 1894, browned (as apposed to blued), octagonal barrel, Winchester lever action that is chambered in 38-55; however, I do not have the heart to shot it.

Uberti makes one of those Lightning clones as well. Are Ubertis prone to the same problem as the Taurus?

I have not shot in any matches yet, but I have been to and watched a few.

Thank you again for all your help, I really appreciate it.

 

[Hafoc]

You definitely want to read the rules for Your Guys to see to it that your guns match their rules. There's a fair amount of variation. There are also different restrictions on different classes within the various organizations. What goes in Traditional wouldn't go in Classic Cowboy, for example.

You are going to want a rifle in a revolver caliber, and it makes life a lot simpler if they both take the same one. .38 Special / 357 Magnum seems most popular with the experts, if that means anything to you. If it doesn't, the fact that the ammo is widely available and relatively cheap is worth considering. Besides, you already have those guns.

I had a Puma-- traded it on the Thunderbolt, unfortunately. A good strong rifle, and mine (in .45 Colt) had no feeding problems either.

If you do research online you'll find a lot of people say it tends to eat itself in heavy use, due to poorly fitted and adjusted parts. So you might want to send it to a smith to have it slicked up and made more durable. That goes for your Uberti revolvers too. But that's a long-term problem, if it ever becomes a problem for you at all.

Of the rifle calibers you listed, .44/40 is a revolver-class cartridge. You could use that in a main match rifle, but it wouldn't do any better than what you have.

Larger calibers get used in side matches if at all. .45/70 has the advantage that the ammo is fairly widely available. Beyond that, I'll yield the floor to someone with more experience.

 

[stinger]

Yes, pistol calibers are for main match rifles, while side matches (usually/sometimes) use the "real" rifle cartridges like 45-70. Marlin 1894's are the most common, and Uberti 66's and 73's are close behind. Marlins are just more common in general, therefore easier to find. The Uberti rifles are not hard to find, but your local gun store probably won't have one in stock. I'd bet they could order one with no problems, though.

I shoot both a Marlin in .357 (use .38's, though) and a Uberti 73 in 45 Colt. I use the Uberti more, but they are both great. The Marlin can't keep up with the Uberti for speed, and neither have ANY work done to them. They can both be worked over and the stroke shortened for light speed action. I can't shoot that fast so I don't need guns that can.

I'd recommend .38's to start for both revolvers and rifle, mainly due to price. Most start with 45 Colt. I've shot both and my times do not really notice much difference in times, but .38's are cheaper to reload. 45's aren't particularly expensive to load, though.

Back to shotguns...CAS does not mandate (and actually allow either) exposed hammers on doubles, but they do for '97's. Local rules might be different, but I'd say less than 10% of doubles that I've seen had exposed hammers. The Stoeger is a good choice and probably the most commonly seen double.

 

[iracodypatterson]

That is what I have so far. I have two Uberti Cattleman 1873s in .357/38 and a Puma M-92 in .357/38. There is a gun store here about a mile from my house that has an indoor range and has some firearms that you can rent and they had an Uberti Cattleman. The one they had for rent was a .45LC which is what I originally planned on getting just because that is the caliber everybody associates with cowboy guns. I am glad I rented it and shot it first because I put maybe twenty-four rounds through and it killed both my hands (with .45lc cowboy rounds). However, I can shoot my .357/38 with .38 specials through them all day and not even know I have been shooting.

The classic and traditional distinction I think might have had a lot to do with it. If I remember correctly they (and I really wish I could remember the organization) seemed to lean more towards later black-powder/early cartridge firearms which might explain why they wanted exposed hammer shotguns. I do not know; they did not impress me much; they just had a good, detailed list of what is and is not acceptable as far as firearms.

That Steoger Couch gun is perfect for what I was thinking and it is a good price as well. Does anybody know the barrel length right off hand? I would guess it is 18-18.5” but I am just curious.

Sorry to drag this on; however, does anybody else make a clone of like the 1874 Sharps or the 1873 Springfield “Trapdoor?” I really like Uberti’s; I just would like to find something a little bit cheaper if I could.

Thank you again for all of your help, I truly appreciate it.

 

[Hafoc]

As with anything where guys compete, there are always gamers who will try to win by buying fancier equipment and not-quite-breaking the rules. And then you get people who in reaction to that agitate for nothing but Genuine Authentic stuff, whatever their version of that might be. Which usually leads to another group of equipment restrictions and another round of not-quite-breaking the rules in yet another class. Honestly, it's the universal pattern, whether you're talking CAS or stock car racing or golf or sailing.

I think that's the main reason you have so many different cowboy action shooting organizations, so many classes, so many conflicting equipment restrictions, etc.

The equipment you're getting seems to be set up toward SASS Traditional class, which is one of the most common. Shouldn't have any problem finding guys to shoot with.

Lots of people make Sharps, Springfields, and don't forget the Remington Rolling Blocks or the Winchester High Walls. Armi Sport and Pedersoli at least among the Italian replica manufacturers, C. Sharps, I think Cimmarron, and many custom makers for the Sharps especially. Aren't any of them inexpensive that I know, though.

 

[Hawg]

As for which orginization. SASS has the most widespread clubs and is the most lenient as far as dress codes, at least in my understanding. There's some things I don't like about it but it's the only thing of it's kind under a two day drive from me.