Correlating Jacketed recipes to Plated bullets

[hgmeyer]

So, can I use “jacketed” recipes for plated bullets? Why do I ask (now)? Someone gave me a few hundred 125gr plated Berrys bullets for .38 Special. And, I could not locate a specific load recipe for 125 gr Berry’s Bullets on AmmoGuide.com . (I know it is not the only place to look) And, it got thinking, went to Berry’s website.
I have been reloading since the 1960s (Certified Geezer, with card carrying proof). I have very successful practice loads in .38, .40 and .45 acp using plated bullets in 158, 180 and 230 grains, respectively. As near as I can tell from my notes/records I started using plated bullets 6 years ago. Unfortunately I can’t find a reference as to where the recipes were adapted from. Memory tells me that I should use “lead” recipes if I cannot find an exact recipe for the plated bullet I am loading.
HOWEVER! My geezer qualified memory is/may be wrong!
From Berry’s website:
“Please consult load data books or your powder manufacturers' website for load information. You can use any published data as long as it is the same weight (FMJ, Lead, Plated, etc.)
-Standard Plate Bullets max velocity- 1,250 fps.
-Thick Plate Bullets (TP) max velocity- 1,500 fps.
For SAAMI MAX COL specs or OAL of the bullet please click HERE.”

I was operating under a memory that my loads were formulated from either “plated” or “lead” recipes, but not for “jacketed” (limiting velocity). But, surprisingly (LOL) my memory is apparently (much to my stunning amazement) wrong (and why we do this very carefully always consulting load manuals, etc.).

Hence, my question/discussion topic. Keeping velocity maximums in mind, is “weight” the only qualifier for a recipe for plated bullets? I don’t treat “jacketed” or “lead” recipes the same way, just correlating to weight.

 

[gwpercle]

When these plated projectiles first came out I remember being advised to use cast bullet data for same weight and profile and to not use jacketed bullet data.
Maybe they have changed their rules now but I will stick to cast bullet data.
Plated bullets are not that much harder than cast ...its just a thin coating .
Gary

 

[Unclenick]

Ranier says jacketed information is fine. I've seen the recommendation not to pass the halfway point with jacketed data. I've seen the recommendation to use higher lead data. Speer Gold Dot bullets have plated jackets and actually want equal to more powder than cup-and-core jacketed bullets do.

So, here's the deal: People have taken cast bullets to jacketed bullet velocity in the past by relying on the right lube and having an alloy hard enough to resist collapsing under the acceleration. The plated bullets are softer than gilding metal—indeed, QuickLOAD defaults Ranier bullets to the same start pressure as lead—but they are typically at least as hard as hard cast bullet alloy, so the deformation slump is not often an issue. I take this approach:

First, I don't agonize over velocity limits. They are only vague guidelines. As you might imagine, getting a bullet to 1500 fps in a 4" barrel takes much higher peak pressure than doing it in a 10" barrel, so of course the former will see higher friction and has a greater chance of building up a lot of metal fouling and of distorting the bullet with high muzzle pressure. What you want to do is work toward whatever peak pressure the bullet tolerates in your gun before it makes excessive copper fouling or accuracy begins to deteriorate. It's pretty much that simple. Watch your bore. If it is smooth or polished, you get to higher velocities than you can in a rough bore before fouling gets to be an issue. Also watch for the usual pressure signs, of course, but I think the bore will usually tell you to back off before other signs show up. But as soon as I generalize like that, someone will relate the opposite experience, so just mind that it might not work out exactly that way in your particular equipment.

 

[FITASC]

Personally, I am more concerned with accuracy than max velocity.....

 

[kmw1954]

Well Hodgdon has a listing for a cast LRNFP and one for Hornady XTP both using HP-38 /Win231 with a load range of 3.8 to 4.8 for the lead and 4.3 to 4.9 for the Hornady. So it looks as they both max out at about 4.8gr So the begins the question of where to start.

Also I do not believe the Berry's bullet has a cannelure to roll crimp into. So that may limit the powder charge also.

Western Powders data shows loads for the Rainier plated bullet with their powders.

 

[SkipperT]

I just started to reload and have some Berry 115 gn copper plated bullets, everything I found stated to start with lead data. The reason behind this from what I understand is that the copper is thinner and softer than the jacketed coating thus it is mimicking the lead bullet.
When I made my first loads I missed a couple of powder drops and got a squib load, thus sticking the bullet in the barrel. When I removed the bullet the lands and groves in the barrel made an interesting pattern on the copper casing,, definitely appeared to be a soft material and I could see the way the copper filled out the barrel.
I did a load with a SNS Casting polymer bullet and had another no powder cartridge, the difference in the bullet and the way the lands and groves appear was amazing, the poly coated bullet did not have the groves that the copper plated bullet did.
Makes me think that if I am going to load copper plated, I would use the lower lead loads to start.
2 cents from a newbie.

 

[Unclenick]

It's softer, but part of the malleability comes from it being thin. Berry's says 0.0035-0.0080". Jackets are not usually that thin. Corbin's match jackets are about 0.013" and hunting bullets get much heavier. This is why start pressures are like lead. The copper actually has a lower coefficient of friction with steel than lead does by a factor of a third to almost half, depending on the source and conditions, which is why lead bullets are usually lubricated and copper bullets are not. In the plated bullet it is acting as a lubricating layer. It also offers some protection from gas cutting.

 

[Prof Young]

I've loaded a lot of plated and . . .

I usually go with the lead bullet formulas as a place to start. They seem to work pretty well. The other thing about loading plated bullets is to get the flair and the crimp right. Not enough flair and the "skin" comes off when you seat the bullet. Too much crimp and the "skin" rips off when you fire it. All in all I really like the plated. Usually cheaper than FMJ and not as "messy" as lead.

I had some Berry's plated bullets that were dimpled on the end. (There is a post about that here somewhere.) I contacted them and they apologized, and sent me 250 replacements.

Life is good.
Prof Young

 

[BigJimP]

You should trust the recommendations from Berry's site ...that you noted ....and using the data in the loading manuals for expected velocity, respect those as well.

None of Berry's handgun bullets have cannelures on them....but you should be ok on them in .38 spl or .357 mag...removing the bell you put in the case ...to get them to hold in the cases without kinetic energy from recoil pulling them out because their plating is thicker & more consistent than a bullet like Rainier. ( I have seen thin plating on Rainiers fracture in magnum calibers ...and guns "spitting" fragments as bullets go into forcing cones or when they leave muzzle...especially in .44 mag...)...but I actually cut some Berry's and Rainiers on a bandsaw...and it was clear how much more consistent & thicker Berry's were.

Long term, I would go with a plated bullet with a cannelure for any revolver caliber...like montana gold ...so you don't risk bullets moving forward inside cylinder.

 

[Tsquared]

I follow the manufacturer's recommendation. I have run into the "no data" frustration. In general I have found plated bullets to not be as accurate as lead and jacketed unless they are the high end thick plate. The cost of the high end thick plated bullet are about what I can pay for jacketed. Or go cheap with Buyou.

 

[jetinteriorguy]

If have shot a lot of Cu plated bullets, all brands. And as a general rule I start at mid lead level and work up to mid jacketed load levels. Of course, just work your way up watching for pressure. Also as a general rule I seem to find my best performance at low jacketed levels.

 

[kmw1954]

For whatever it's worth I have found myself moving more and more to Western Brand powders just because of the fact tat they do list as many plated loads as they do. I'm guess many here will not agree with that because of being set in their ways with powders and bullets that they have already been using. I on the other hand have only been at this game and using plated bullets for about 1.5yrs. So I am not set on any one powder and only buy a lb. at a time I can play around and experiment.

From exclusively using plated in all my hand loads I have done a lot of research on loads and different powders. In most cases I can find where the cast lead and jacketed bullets overlap. This seems to be the area in which the plated bullets perform best. At least this has been my observation.

 

[reddog81]

Doesn't Berry's own literature answer your question?

The vast majority of the time the load data between similarly shaped bullets has overlapping data. Lead starting charges will go lighter because the reduced friction of lead, but the max charges are usually pretty close. Starting on the low end of this overlap seems like the most logical answer to me.

 

[kmw1954]

Which Berry's Literature would that be? The statement to find data on someone else's site?

Berry's doesn't have any published load data of their own..

 

[reddog81]

Which Berry's Literature would that be? The statement to find data on someone else's site?

Berry's doesn't have any published load data of their own..

The quote from Berrys website mentioned in the original post. 3/4's of the way through the post.

 

[kmw1954]

Well that Quote from Berry's website sure doesn't seem to answer many of the questions that arise. Which I bring up again. How many published loads can you find for a 9mm Hollow Base Bullet of any kind?

The Hollow Base Bullet is not the same as a Flat Solid Base.