Correct Handgun Companion for the Krag

C

charles isaac

New member
I have recently bought an original Krag and would really like to buy the pistol that goes with it.

I know the Army used a shorter barrel Colt single action during the time of the Krag that is known as a rough rider and I saw a reproduction of one, but it was a 45, and I thought it should be a 38. The old Army holster I found fits the long barreled 8" gun, not the shorter guns from the time of the Krag. I have a 6" single action that the people on this board helped me find and it fits the holster except the holster is about 2" too long. This holster was cheap because it has an extra hole that someone put in it to fit another gun.

Does anybody know what the specifications are for the Colts from this era, such as barrel length, caliber. Also, what does one of these cost? How much will it cost to have the holster cut down to fit a rough rider and can the extra hole be plugged?

Thanks for any information you can provide.
 
M

Mike Irwin

Staff
The standard service revolver for most of the Krag's service was the Colt Army-Navy double action in .38 Long Colt.

During the Philippine Insurrection the Single Action Army Colts in .45 Long Colt were brought back into service because the .38 round proved to be woefully ineffective at stopping local natives.
 
4

44 AMP

Staff
What Mike says....

So, as a companion to a Krag, either the .38 New Service or the .45 SAA would be correct. And I have to believe that while the shorter (5.5"?) SAA was used, the original 7.5" SAA would also have been issued. The .45 Colt SAA was issued to stop the Moros when the .38 wasn't, so I would thinkthey would have issued whatever was in inventory at the time, and I am sure at leas some of the 7.5" guns were still in inventory. So, either SAA would be ok as a companion to your Krag.

Good luck with your collection. A saddle & tack shop would be able to answer your holster questions, if there is one in your area.
 
M

Mike Irwin

Staff
"the .38 New Service"

As far as I know that would not be correct.

The New Service revolver was not adopted in .38 caliber.

The "New" Army Navy was a redesign of the Colt Model 1889 New Navy.

The New Service was, I believe, a later introduction with a modified, larger frame.
 
J

Jim Watson

New member
The period issue revolver was the New Army & Navy .38.

The New Service has a larger frame for calibers up to .45 and was not adopted for issue until 1909 as a stopgap until a satisfactory automatic pistol could be procured. Not a correct sidearm if you plan to "underneath the starry flag, we'll civilize them with a Krag."

The first return to the .45 in the Philippines was with the SAA .45. While they likely got some original 7 1/2" guns going back to 1873, a lot were the Artillery Model. These were not of new make but many of the original 7 1/2" "Cavalry Model" SAAs which were refurbished by Colt and Springfield Armory to include shortening the barrels to 5 1/2". Most done in time for the Spanish-American War. Nearly all of those have mixed serial numbers. Cimarron has a repro Artillery Model, right down to the RAC inspector's mark.

The next issue of .45s was by purchase of Colt Double Action Frontiers. They were the 1902 "Alaskan Model" so called because of the large trigger guard and long trigger which were thought to have been provided for use with gloves. Actually, it was to give the shooter more leverage against the tough double action pull and the guns are also known as the "Philippine Model" which is where they were actually deployed.

Maybe a collector will come along with more details or corrections.
 
R

RickB

New member
The New Army/Navy was a medium frame design, which eventually evolved into the Army Special, Official Police, and eventually, the Python.
The New Service was first adopted as the M1909 in .45 Colt, as a stop-gap until the M1911 could be developed, then later, as the M1917 in .45 ACP.
 
C

charles isaac

New member
I went to my local shop and asked about the New Army and Navy Colt and the kid behind the counter said these are percussion revolvers, models 1860 and 1861. I am familiar with the 1860 Army somewhat but the 1861 threw me off.

These are civil war type guns and I doubt they would have been used much by the time of the Spanish war, but this kid is kind of nutty anyway saying the M1 was used in World War 1 and the first models were bolt actions!
 
4

44 AMP

Staff
Apologies

I was definately wrong when I said .38 New Service for the revolver. Not quite sure how I could have been so off base,must have something else on my mind. A friend recently traded a New Service for a S&W M27 3 1/2", and that must have been on my mind. Sorry for the mistake. Other posters are correct, The New Service would not be the correct gun to go with the Krag.

Colt has had so many models from the turn of the century era that sometimes I get them confused. Guess that is what I get for just going off the top of head late at night and not checking the proper references before opening my big mouth (and fingers).
 
J

Jim Watson

New member
Charles, you start listening to "the kid behind the counter" instead of people like Mike and Rick and you will be in a world of hurt. Even I seem to know more than that kid.
 
D

Dfariswheel

New member
The Colt "Navy" was the Colt Model 1851 cap and ball.

To be exact, the Colt revolver in question was the Colt "New Army & Navy" Model 1889.
This was the world's first double action, swing-out cylinder revolver.
Colt made a very rapid series of improvements in this gun, and there were the following models made:

The 1889 first model known as the Colt New Navy.
The Model 1892, which introduced the name "Colt New Army & Navy" after the Army too bought it.
The Models 1894, 1895, 1896, 1901, and 1903.

As said, these were double action, swing-out cylinder revolvers. They are all the same basic gun, but the action was improved rapidly, so each was a new Model.
There were several chamberings in the commercial models, but the only one used by the US Military was the now-obsolete low pressure .38 Colt Long.
Genuine US issue pistols will have Army or Navy marks and serial numbers on the butt.

As a practical matter, these guns can still be found, but care should be taken due to the age, and VERY intricate and rather delicate action.
While some people custom load ammunition and shoot them, parts in usable condition are almost impossible to find, and the actions give problems or break rather easily.
Few if any gunsmiths will work on them due to the complicated action and lack of parts.

Shooting these old Colt's can be done as long as you fully understand the limitations.
First, these guns were chambered in an obsolete low-pressure cartridge. Great care must be taken to select a powder that will have a low enough pressure curve to not over-stress the gun.
The .38 Long Colt was originally a black powder round, and even the New Army & Navy smokless powder guns simply weren't made of steel or heat treated for modern powders or pressures.

Second, many of these guns have chambers drilled straight through and will allow chambering of the .38 Special, and even the .357 Magnum. Under NO circumstances should ANY .38 Special or .357 ammo be fired in these guns.
 
G

gordo b.

New member
What I would do is get the still reasonably priced Colt Army Special in .38 spec. and call it a match. Few out there would know the difference and it looks VERY close o the 1899 .38 long Colt antique.;)
 
M

Mike Irwin

Staff
Listen to me intensely when it concerns S&W revolvers.

Not so intently when it concern Colt revolvers. :D

I have a basic knowledge of Colt revolvers, but not so much as with the S&Ws.
 
C

CraigC

Moderator
It may not be entirely period-correct but as somebody who firmly regrets not buying a sporterized Krag last year, a big bore Colt New Service is what would call to me. The .44Spl would be preferable.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top