copper at muzzle is stubborn

[Colorado Redneck]

I have a couple Savage rifles chambered in .204 Ruger. After 800 rounds max., there has been a problem removing copper from the rifling (not new, ever since the early round count). The barrel in the picture is a Criterion barrel, cleaned with Hoppes no. 9, then with Hoppes Bench Rest left in the bore over night. My loads are 1.5 gr. below max load Benchmark, 40 gr. V-max bullets. Without getting into detail, I have used Hoppes Bench Rest to remove copper, left it in the bore over night, brushed with nylon brush etc. And Sweets 7.65 doesn't get it out either. If there is this much copper at the muzzle after a very thorough cleaning, how much is just past the throat? Any comments or opinions appreciated. And I need to add, accuracy in the Criterion barrel is great. Accuracy in the Savage factory barrel degrades if the copper isn't cleaned out. But the damned copper at the muzzle never goes away.

 

[Shadow9mm]

Try bore tech cu+2. I have been using their Eliminator bore cleaner and it has gotten most of the copper out of my barrels. You have a lot more than I did though which is why I am recommending the cu+2 which is their dedicate copper remover. It is barrel safe, no ammonia, you can let it sit forever. Also all their stuff has had a very minimal smell for me. If you order off amazon and it does not work just return the rest.

bore tech
https://www.boretech.com/products/cu2-copper-remover

Amazon
https://www.amazon.com/Bore-Tech-Eliminator-Cleaner/dp/B0070IS08O/ref=sr_1_4?crid=24Q7PX5F4UBEB&dchild=1&keywords=bore+tech+cu+2+copper+remover&qid=1595115579&spref

 

[std7mag]

If your using a borescope there is one rule to remember.

Never, and i mean NEVER put one down a Savage barrel!!

You would be the first person that claimed a factory Savage barrel lost accuracy with copper in it.
And i shoot mostly Savage.

I only use Hoppes #9. Wet patch, then brass brush. Followed by wet patch and leave sit over night. Next day brush again, wet patch, then dry patches ending with an oiled patch.

You know the "fouler" shots are just putting the copper back after you removed it all, right?

 

[Colorado Redneck]

Have ya seen copper this stubborn? The only other rifle that did this to this extent was a Win Model 70 push feed in 270. I shot about 40 Barnes T-TSX one afternoon. My first experience with solid copper bullets. I finally got the tube clean with Barnes cu cleaner. Disgusting experience. I hated that stuff. But I digress.

Shadow9mm
Thanks for the suggestion. I'll give it a try.

std7mag
This 12FV loses accuracy if I don't remove the cu, usually takes about 100 rounds. Take the carbon out, no bueno. Work on the cu a couple days and it's good again. The old 12 with the Criterion bbl isn't finicky. I think its only had the cu worked on twice, this being the second time. And I don't have a bore scope.

I can live with having to use time + elbow grease to keep the 12FV shooting. When it's not copper fould too much, it shoots good. Probably getting OCD about this, but there are worse things.

More comments are appreciated!

 

[mehavey]

KG-12

Slop in in
Wait 5 min
Drypatch the resulting brown (chelated copper) crud out.

Repeat (maybe) if required

 

[jetinteriorguy]

I’ve had similar problems in a couple of different rifles, I just soak a bore mop in whatever cleaner you prefer and shove the mop in the end of the barrel and let that soak for a day, then clean and repeat as necessary. My Henry .357 BBS had a bad case of this due to me over driving some copper coated bullets. It took a whole week of doing this every day but it eventually came clean.

 

[bamaranger]

Oh yeah!

I've got a Rem 700 ADL, .270 w/ 22" barrel, bought about 1994. It is absolutely the worst copper fouler I have ever owned, or seen for that matter. It is also a "slow" barrel, velocity with 130 gr slugs is disappointing, and I wish it were a 24" tube. At about 20 rds ( 1 box of shells) I can see accuracy deteriorate. There is copper at the muzzle almost constantly after just 10 rds or so. Accuracy, however, is the reason it remains in my possession. The first 3 rounds I ever put through it, factory ammo, you could cover with a quarter (100 yds). It will generally shoot my handloads into 1MOA, regardless of bullet weight, till it fouls. It also has the tendency to put a variety of bullet weights into the same spot w/o a sight change. I've made several memorable hunts/kills with it, and the trigger is a delight, so it stays.

I've JB'd the snot out of it, and shoot it only enough to verify zero and hunt. I clean to bare metal with Breakfree foam and occasionally more JB.

 

[Bfglowkey]

A dirty Savage is a happy savage.

I think that's what my grandpappy used to say. Serious note, if your rifle is shooting well and accuracy hasn't gone to heck, I would let the sleeping dog lie.

 

[Colorado Redneck]

Greatly appreciate the feedback. I worked on that rifle for another 24 hours with Hoppes Benchrest and the patches were getting much more pale blue so gave up. Still has the copper at the muzzle. Don't care if it'll shoot, so time will tell. The prairie dog shooting isn't good this summer for a bunch of reasons, so range time is the alternative.

It will be interesting to try the suggested products. Thanks again for the input.

 

[mehavey]

KG-12 (!)

 

[hooligan1]

I have used many types of copper remover, and the one I keep buying just plain works, BoreTech Eliminator.

 

[zeke]

KG-12 is the best have personally used, BUT USE GLOVES and do not get any on skin. Won't burn you, but will get in ya. Have used the older Barnes sopper cleaner (cr-10?), and the KG works better for me.

 

[Bart B.]

My guess is the cause is a rough surface on the lands and grooves near the muzzle. Cutting an inch off the muzzle then recrowning should fix it.

Muzzle velocity will be around 25 fps slower and accuracy should improve.

 

[Shadow9mm]

My guess is the cause is a rough surface on the lands and grooves near the muzzle. Cutting an inch off the muzzle then recrowning should fix it.

Muzzle velocity will be around 25 fps slower and accuracy should improve.

seems kinda drastic to lop off the end of the barrel. maybe a full copper removal followed by jb bore cleaner then jb bore bright.

 

[Bart B.]

seems kinda drastic to lop off the end of the barrel. maybe a full copper removal followed by jb bore cleaner then jb bore bright.

Good barrel fitters cut off the last inch or two of best quality barrel blanks. The bore and groove diameters are irregular and rough there. Some new barrel blanks are marked near the muzzle where they should be cut off and finished.

Same thing with the the back end but it's removed by the chamber reamer.

 

[Double K]

Back in the early 90's I was at the highpower silhouette nationals in Raton NM. I was viciously trying to scrub the copper out of my barrel when Joy Cox walked up to watch, she was the top women's shooter in the country at the time so I listened when started to talk, to my amazement she said she never cleaned the copper out of her barrel. She cleaned it after every season, once a year!
She won the overall nationals that year and I stopped wearing out brushes and patches trying to clean copper out of rifle barrels.
Sometime shortly after the big game seasons close and it's to cold for shooting tournament's I run a nylon brush with whatever solvent I happen to have on hand for maybe 20-30 strokes, wash it out with gun scrubber and put a couple of patches with rust inhibitor down the bore of every rifle except the coyote guns and call it good.
Rifles that regularly have a suppressor on them are cleaned often.

 

[Bart B.]

Double K, approximately many MOAs does each silhouette target body subtend verticality and horizontally at the range they're shot at?

 

[Double K]

Double K, approximately many MOAs does each silhouette target body subtend verticality and horizontally at the range they're shot at?

I have no idea, most people are happy with a 2.5" group at 500m. Most folks are not shooting rifles with factory barrels, a hand lapped barrel isn't going to foul like a factory barrel with tool marks either.
Unless a rifle is an actual match rifle with a custom barrel I think it's silly to worry about accuracy below .5 moa. In a hunting rifle the most important shot is the first one from a cold barrel, and that's not really that important unless your shots are over 200yds. I probably shot a 100 coyotes with a Colt carbine flat top that would barely group 1.5" at 100yds, I don't think I ever missed one I could blame the rifle for, the gun was good on target from a cold barrel.
As to the op's 204, I've never seen a copper fouled barrel that couldn't be cleaned with sweets, you have to shake the bottle up because it separate's, found that out when I put it in a transparent squeeze bottle for the range when I was a compulsive barrel cleaner.
Here's my 6x47remington, Remington 700 with a hand lapped Douglas 1-8" twist barrel to stabilize those long 115 d-tac bullets.

 

[Bart B.]

Silhouette's huge target dimensions are listed in:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metallic_silhouette_shooting

 

[Double K]

They are big targets, they're also shot offhand not off of a rest, if you break a shot anywhere on the target including the edge you need to hit the target to be competitive.
The ram target is 32" and 27" tall shot at 500 meters=547yards, it takes a 20x scope to see it well enough for good shots.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ldd1nn7j3NM