constitutional, unconstitutional, what freedoms do you support?

[spacemanspiff]

To me, it matters little if the Pledge is unconstitutional. I've always felt its a citizens CHOICE whether or not they want to recite the Pledge, live their life by it, just like its our choice to be religious, athiest, racist, sexist, heterosexual, homosexual, whatever.

Religion, politics, sexuality, socialality (i'm making up this word) should all be handled by parents, not schools, not government. Perhaps one of the reasons the majority of youths over 18 don't vote is because noone has given them much direction as far as why politics are important.

I've never been patriotic, politically minded, or anything like that. I respect the arrangements set in place for reciting the Pledge of Allegiance, the singing of the National Anthem, etc, but I don't participate. When you see someone like me, does that change how you think about me?

 

[Nanaimo Barr]

watch it Spiff.. the MaCarthyites (who are the ones who had "under God" added to the Pledge) might think your a goddless commie and not worthy of being an American.

 

[Libertarian]

I support all of our freedoms. I just wish that the founders had been a little more clear about religion staying out of government instead of only vice versa. The demarcation should be absolute and inviolate.

It pisses me off to no end to see the Christians wrapping themselves in the flag as if they hold the key to moralism and goodness. I do not believe in god. There is no god. But I believe that I am as moral and just as anyone here.

As an example (and there are many): At one neighborhood picnic a homeless guy came out of the woods and asked for leftovers. Not one self-proclaimed Christian in the group was willing to even let the guy eat out of the trash. They'd have rather thrown away the food than shared. My wife and I, both atheists, took the left over food from the guys carrying it to the trash and gave it to the guy. The Christians were outraged. I was disgusted. The guy got to eat despite these followers of Christ.

I am not looking for any pat on the back. In fact, I don't want your approval. I am saying that forcing all people to affirm your mythological superdude's existence is wrong. This is America not some middle eastern theocracy.

But, I support your right to worship however you choose so long as it doesn't effect me in any way.

 

[Zander]

...might think your a goddless commie and not worthy of being an American. -- Nanaimo Barr

Spare us your obvious bigotry.

 

[Zander]

But, I support your right to worship however you choose so long as it doesn't effect me in any way.

How very tolerant of you.

I do not believe in god. There is no god. ...

Awaiting your [no-doubt] pitiful "proof" that God doesn't exist.

Call Minister Newdow...I'm sure he'll give you all the "evidence" you need.

 

[Libertarian]

I am much more tolerant than most Christians I know. They don't want to allow me to speak in rebuttal of their "universal truths."

I do not need to prove that something doesn't exist. It is up to you as a Christian to prove god does exist and do it without using that old smoke and mirrors joke called "faith."

 

[Scott Conklin]

The Founders were "less than clear" about religion staying out of government than government staying out of religion for a very simple reason: That's the way they intended it. It's freedom OF religion, not freedom from it.

I'm not even going into the relativism present in an atheist claiming a solid moral footing other than to say if so then your moral stance is rooted in Chrisitan ethics regardless of what name or excuse you attach to it. As for there being no God, you're entitled to your opinion, even when it is wrong.

 

[Scott Conklin]

The proof is all around you, Lib. The fact you choose to not accept it or see it as such is not our problem. We can't force you, remember?

 

[Libertarian]

I have to laugh at your assertion that I found my morals in Christ's teachings. If you research your comparitive religions you'll see that most of those Christian ideals are predated by the same ideas in Buddism. Doing the right thing is not held in monopoly by Christians.

 

[Libertarian]

Nice try 2nd A but circular logic wins no prize. Are you expecting me to believe that god exists because I exist therefore god exists?

 

[Scott Conklin]

Well, before this little journey into religion is shut down I'll take this broadside: The stances you learned were within a Christian culture and based on Christian ethics. IF they were predated by some other belief(which Buddhism, technically is not a religion)that doesn't alter the fact of the culture in which your views were formed. Also, I've seen no evidence that these beliefs *were* predated by any other system.

No, I don't expect you to believe because you are, I expect you to look around at what exists and then attempt to view and weigh the odds of what IS coming into being entirely thru casual chance and entirely in spite of the very same thing. The odds are against it so heavily that in any other discipline they would demand the discarding of the theory out of hand. One of the most telling admissions of this came from a famous biologist and Evolutionist who stated bluntly, when asked how he could get past the impossibility of his stance that "Of course it's impossible but we're here so it has to be since there's no other answer I can accept..."

Now that's faith writ large.

 

[Libertarian]

All I ever learned from Christian teachings was intolerance and hate. It took me years to recover and learn to accept differences in others as valid choices. I never said that Buddhism was or wasn't a religion. I did say that the same concepts taught by your god were taught by Buddha centuries earlier.

Just because I don't understand the science behind something doesn't mean I have to attribute it to a god. Who said that any science suitably advanced will be indistinguishable from magic? Was it Asimov or Heinlein?

 

[Nanaimo Barr]

Mr. Zander: if dueling was still legal I would call you out over that.. how DARE you call me a biggot. you know nothing about me except that I disagree with you on at least one issue. If you would open a history book and look up the events refered to as "MaCarthyism" you would know that "Goddless Commie" was a term actualy used by "Tail Gunner" (he wasn't) Sen. Joe McCarthy for people who opposed him. as seems to be your attatude. if you didn't agree with him you were UnAmerican. do the words "House UnAmerican Activities Committe" ring a bell?

 

[Justin]

Who said that any science suitably advanced will be indistinguishable from magic? Was it Asimov or Heinlein?

Niether, t'was Arthur C. Clarke.

Can some one please tell me why I should get worked up about religion?
I mean, Libertarian, seriously, go have a beer and chill out, it's not that big a deal.
After all, it seems that it's been a rehashing of the same philosophical questions for eons, with no discernable, or even interesting answers or advancements.

 

[Scott Conklin]

The interesting thing that people forget about McCarthy is that he was largely proven right in time.

Lib, I don't know how you could learn hate from Christianity. Maybe religion, but that is hardly the same thing. As for intolerance, that depends on your meaning of the word. I am very intolerant of many things. Stupidity, Liberalism(perhaps I restated myself there), and other "beliefs". I'm intolerant of other political systems. Todays brand of tolerance demands that one accept everything as equally legitimate and correct and I don't. Some things are wrong, some are right. You'll have to expand your comment.

 

[Nanaimo Barr]

Caliban, if you look back over the last couple of thousand years, when you mix govt and religon people die in wholesale lots.

thats why the big deal.

 

[Nanaimo Barr]

McCarthy was largley proven RIGHT?

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!! thats the funniest thing I've hear on this subject all day!!

I see they still don't teach history..

 

[Scott Conklin]

Our government and Christianity were tightly mixed prior to WWII. Not only were we not killed in wholesale lots but much less likely to be killed than today, whether by gub'mint or on the school yard.

 

[Scott Conklin]

Actually no, they don't. You have to learn it yourself. How many of those accused eventually turned up to indeed have Communist connections? Likewise, how much of what McCarthy actually said and did was misportrayed by the media? The entire scenerio of "McCarthyism", what people think happened, has no basis in fact. That much is shown by the Congressional record when compared to media accounts of the day and Leftist spin since.

 

[Don Gwinn]

Guys, I'm sorry, but we're just not going to do the atheist vs. Christian Fight Night on TFL. Neither of you has said anything that breaks TFL's rules, and neither of you is being singled out. If either of you must play the martyr, remember that I don't agree with either of you, so I'm not playing favorites here.
Instead, I am simply exercising my discretion under rule number 4 to shut down a discussion that we all know is going to turn ugly.