Constitutional Debate

divemedic

New member
While my coworkers and I were discussing this post, one of them remarked that no one should be allowed to own any gun that the police do not own. I told him I was fine with that, because the police own machine guns, tanks, and rocket launchers. He said no, he meant what the average officer on the street has. He then gave the standard line about the constitution being out of date.

When I pointed out that his opinion would apply to the other amendments as well, and asked him to tell me how he felt about that, he told me that the Constitution was unneeded in this day and age, and he felt that too many people "hid" behind the constitution. He thinks that society is falling apart because we let people have too much freedom, and they abuse it.

He used Child pornography as an example. He said that under the First Amendment, child porn would be legal. I told him that if I want to write stories about children in those situations, that would be protected speech, however repugnant it may be. When a child porn FILM is made, you would be prosecuted. Not for a speech crime, but for having sex with minors. The speech is protected, the act is not. That is like saying a book about bank robberies is legal, but robbing one isn't.

He ranted on about how it should be illegal to slander the President (citing the TV show "Lil Bush") and how we should eliminate the separation of church and state, so that we can declare Christianity the national religion, thus preventing Muslims from taking over the world.

I wonder of this guy really believes that rubbish, or if he was just not willing to admit he was wrong. If he believes it, that is truly scary.
 

FirstFreedom

Moderator
That guy is so far out in left field that he's not even worth trying to debate with. His initial premise was that the 1A protects child porn. It certainly does not. So he has no argument from the get-go.
 

divemedic

New member
That was the point- he wants the First abolished BECAUSE free speech would include child porn, and should thus be illegal.

I pointed out that if a pedophile writes a story about having sex with children, that would be protected speech. I also pointed out that if a pedophile made a film or took kiddie porn pictures, the speech is protected, but the act of having sex with the child or photographing the child in the nude is not protected.

In the both cases, speech is protected. The act is not.

He went on to say that the constitution gets in the way of every improvement we try to make as a society. He wants the constitution abolished. I wonder how many people in this country agree with him. I would imagine the number is higher than I first suspected.
 
It sounds like your coworker is a Nazi... and not in the figurative "I'm going to call him a nazi because I don't agree with him" sort of way, but a real-deal national socialist with a weird religious streak.

Fortunately, I'm such a damn sucker for the Bill o' Rights that I'm not even going to suggest that you flail him with chains for his words.
 

Dewhitewolf

New member
He clearly does not have even a basic understanding of the Constitution. Perhaps he is only going by some civics lesson he got in high school.

Be sure to let your friend know that the police are not the militia as mentioned in the second amendment; there is neither historical nor legal basis for that argument. Therefore, his argument that people should only be allowed to own guns that the average beat cop has, carries no weight. It also clearly shows he knows not the first thing about firearms.

With regard to his argument that it should be illegal to slander the president, tell him to go research the Sedition Act of 1798, enacted by the Federalists. Anyone who committed sedition (aka seditious libel, false statements against government officials) was strictly prosecuted. In the elections following the passing and enforcement of the act, the Federalists lost seats in Congress, the Senate, and John Adams lost to Thomas Jefferson. Jefferson pardoned all those found guilty of sedition and had all fines repaid. The Sedition Act expired as stipulated in its legislation. The Federalists never gained another office.

Perhaps if he's going to act as a Constitutional scholar, he ought to learn not only about it, but also the 220 years of case law since it was written.
 

Hugh Damright

New member
he told me that the Constitution was unneeded in this day and age, and he felt that too many people "hid" behind the constitution. He thinks that society is falling apart because we let people have too much freedom, and they abuse it.
I have a rather good book on the USBOR which suggests that society is falling apart because of an intent to use the 14th "Amendment" to limit the States in the same way that the federal government is intended to be limited, and as a result the States are bound so tight that they cannot preserve their society and culture.

For example, your coworker says that child porn would be legal under the First Amendment, but I think the Constitution leaves it up to each State, so that the US would be powerless to ban child porn, but each State would decide for themselves what they consider to be child porn and ban it as they see fit. He seems to think that the USBOR limits the States in the same way that the US is limited, and if society is falling apart, I reckon it is because of his own political view.
 

divemedic

New member
You have to understand, he doesn't care what the CONUS says. When I brought up the constitution in relation to gun laws, he said, "Oh, that. The Constitution was written over 200 years ago, times have changed. We need to just get rid of that."
 

Pat H

Moderator
You have to understand, he doesn't care what the CONUS says. When I brought up the constitution in relation to gun laws, he said, "Oh, that. The Constitution was written over 200 years ago, times have changed. We need to just get rid of that."
He certainly doesn't value rights, perhaps you should ask him if he thinks he should be arrested for what he's said to you?

He clearly does not have even a basic understanding of the Constitution. Perhaps he is only going by some civics lesson he got in high school.
I would say this person's expressed opinion reveals something much worse than ignorance of the Constitution; it reveals a malignant inclination based on a more than adequate understanding of what the Constitution still does, though at a significantly reduced level these days, and a wish to stop what it does so that his personal demons can be exorcised from the nation.
 

Waitone

New member
Lemme guess. He thinks it ok to apportion electoral college votes based on popular vote?

Your friend is someone to remember when we hear the drum beat for a constitutional convention. It'll start right after the '08 election.
 

divemedic

New member
You got it. He was against the electoral college, but when I asked him, he couldn't tell me how it worked. He thought that the electoral college voted BEFORE election day, and that election day was meaningless.

He even called himself a conservative. Even though:

He is against:
gay marriage
electoral college
guns
free speech

He is for:
abortion
official religion being Christianity
welfare
Government healthcare

He accused me of being a liberal because I told him I didn't care if gays got married. He is making my days at work interesting.

You can laugh, but I think this is how a significant portion of the American public feels. This is who is holding the key to our gun rights.
 

Waitone

New member
Looks like your friend has all the bases covered from any number of directions. Just for giggles you might ask him if he thinks anyone should be denied the vote if they take welfare. His answer might give you a clue as to what he really thinks.
 

WESHOOT2

New member
"Make Millions!!!"

I am seriously considering getting into the tinfoil hat market.



-------------------------------------

"all my thinking is delusional thinking, I think"
 

KenpoProfessor

New member
So I gotta ask, how old are you guys? Sounds to me that your coworker is very young and has been indoctrinated well in the public school system with no real life experience.

Have a great gun carryin' Kenpo day

Clyde
 

Epyon

New member
Wow, crazy...

I've met people that are fairly anti-Muslim, what they fail to realize is that there is a fairly large Muslim population in this country, they are under the notion that most of them are ready to take orders for a huge jihad within America. I think their tinfoil hats are on too tightly.


Epyon
 
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