Considering a Win Mod 70, Pre-64 30'06

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spacemanspiff

New member
I perused a half dozen past threads regarding a pre64 Mod 70, and I am going to meet with a seller later today. Seller describes it as 'outstanding', and that its a 1 moa rifle. Says rifling is bright and shiny, bluing worn in some spots, but no pitting anywhere. Includes Leupold scope mounts. Asking $850. Serial number is within the range to make its manufactuer 1950.

What should I be on the lookout for?
 
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T. O'Heir

New member
Be on the lookout for the same things you'd look at when buying any used rifle.
Do not believe 1 MOA stories or targets that may be provided as proof. Shooting the thing yourself is the only proof that matters. 1 MAO stories tend to be with specific match ammo and/or one time things.
 
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RaySendero

New member
T. O'Heir wrote:
Be on the lookout for the same things you'd look at when buying any used rifle.

Do not believe 1 MOA stories or targets that may be provided as proof. Shooting the thing yourself is the only proof that matters.
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I'll second that advice. AND add my limited experience:

Have 2 pre-64 M70 Winchesters. The first time I shot'em for group, neither shot MOA!
1 was a little over 2.5" and the other was over 1.5" at 100 yds!!!

Turns out these 2 rifles were the most finicky rifles I've come across.
When I realized this, I continued to experiment with loads and
found one hunting load (yes, I hunt'em) for each rifle that now have both grouping 1/2" or less.

So...My last piece of advice:
If it doesn't shoot as accurate as you would want/like,
Keep trying! I'm glad I did.
 
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SquirrelMan

New member
I just bought a 1949 model in 30-06. It has an aftermarket recoil pad and the wood has been refinished. After a thorough cleaning, the bore is nice and shiny and ready for the range. I settled for an unoriginal gun because I am probably going to put some dings in the wood out in the field.

One cool thing about this rifle is that is has a Bausch and Lomb BALFOR scope from the early 60s on it. It is a fixed 4x scope, but it is quickly detachable/attachable and is supposed to return to zero after you put it back on. The windage and elevation adjustments are in the base, so there is no adjustment in the scope to be knocked out of whack. The adjustments in the base also have locking screws.

I will probably be taking it to the range this weekend to find out what factory ammo it likes. I have bought 3 kinds, so hopefully one of them will be good. That is the beauty of the 30-06, there are a blue million different loadings on the shelf.

I am hoping to take it out west for an elk hunt in the next few years.
 
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RC20

New member
I would also get one of Steven Mathews throat erosion and muzzle wear gauges.

With some judgment on the crown setup, you can use them as a pretty good gauge of a MW (probably same with Throat Erosion but I would have to play with it).

If not spot on you can establish a kind of baseline.

Probably not shot out but the only way to really tell is that or some other tricks, the gauge is quick and easy.

30 caliber so it works for 308, 300 WM etc for the MW.
 
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James K

Member In Memoriam
It is interesting that today so many pre-64 Model 70's being offered for sale shoot sub-MOA. Most never shot that well before they became sacred icons.

Jim
 
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agtman

Moderator
It is interesting that today so many pre-64 Model 70's being offered for sale shoot sub-MOA.
Most never shot that well before they became sacred icons.
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Agree.

Except for having the Mauser-style "claw" extractor, which I do prefer, pre-64 Winchesters as a species are overrated. Overly-hyped, superstitious cow pooh-pooh, you ask me.
 
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scoobydoo6906

New member
I have a circa 1949 comercial FN mauser (Firearms International) that is chambered in 30-06 that I am going to send off before to long to have some accuracy work done along with a re-barrel/re-chamber to either 6.5-06 or 6.5-.284. Currently it shoots about 1.25-1.5" groups with heavy bullets.
 
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agtman

Moderator
Wasn't the model 70 Winchester in 30-'06 the rifle that Carlos Hathcock used in Viet Nam?
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Yes, one of his rifles was a Winny 70 in '06. But, IIRC, it had been somewhat "accurized" by one of the unit armorers or resident 'smiths. Just basic stuff though, nothing match-grade added, as I recall. The barrel was channelled in the original stock and the trigger smoothed over. Maybe bedded.

Whether it was "target-grade" MOA is irrelevant; in Hathcock's hands it was minute-of-commie, and back in the 'Nam that was good enough.
 
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kraigwy

New member
If the rifle is in any decent shape, its work the $850.

As to 1 moa, well I never bought into groups for any rifle. Its as much to do with the ammo as gun, and more to do with the shooter.

Now I bought a pre-64 with an excellent barrel, also in '06. I cried like a Yankee until he threw in a 4X El Paso Weaver Scope. With good loads it shoots a hair over 2 MOA. More then adequate for hunting.

Hathcock and his Model 70 was mentioned. According to him, it was a 2 MOA rifle as were most of those target Model 70s of the day. But remember a 2 MOA rifle will clean the 1000 yard NRA Targets Hathcock was famous for.

But again, regardless of 1 MOA, if its in good shape, good barrel, it worth $850.
But you have to consider I'm a huge Model 70 Fan and a bit (a lot) prejudges.
 
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elmbow

New member
"Book value" is determined by condition, modifications, model, and date of production.
"Intrinsic value" is determined solely by you. I recently paid $700 for a 1956 Featherweight 30.06 in ~85%-90% condition with an aftermarket recoil pad, no other mods. Per the book I paid spot on its retail value. I wanted the rifle and had a Bansner stock ready to drop it into so I left the store happier than a pig in poop.
There isn't going to be any shortage of Pre-64 Mod 70's anytime soon, so you can be choosy if you are willing to wait and shop locally. The online auction sellers mostly live in LaLa Land with their bloated asking prices.
I like the Featherweights. By today's standards they are anything but, but were trim compared to the standard models and I personally would never own a Pre-64 in a short action because there never was such a thing, they blocked the standard magazine. Heavy heavy rifles in a short action caliber.
Reason to buy a Pre-64 model 70?
1. Because you collect them.
2. Because you like classic controlled round feed actions and appreciate the old timey machining and hand labor that went into building these rifles.

To repeat what others have said, don't expect a precision rifle. But remember, when Colonel Whelen said that "only accurate rifles are interesting", a 2moa rifle was considered accurate. That's 10" at 500 yards if you do your part and that's plenty to hit Muley boilerplate.
 
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James K

Member In Memoriam
Part of the reason the old Model 70 was considered so good in its time is that there was not much else. The only close competitor was Remington, and up to the 721/722, its rifles were all built on leftover M1917 Enfield actions, which were heavy and bulky in spite of Remington's attempts to both improve the action and to disguise its source. (Many Remington Model 30 owners to this day do not believe they really have "sporterized" M1917's.)

The only other source of decent centerfire bolt actions prior to WWII was Germany, which turned a lot of ex-military Mausers into sporters for export to the U.S. right up to December 1941.

Jim
 
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elmbow

New member
To digress a bit, I'm a proud owner of a Model 30 Express and IMO, it is a work of art. Mine has a Redfield 70 receiver sight and it will hold 4" groups at 200 yards with my 66 year old eyes, and ordinary ammo. I love the five down, the smooth action, and the fit and finish. Mine is a 30'06, perfect caliber, it can be loaded as hot as you would like, say, for example, 180 grainers at 2900 fps, the action is rock of Gibraltor strong, the magazine allows long loading 220 grain pills if so inclined, and the chamber throat is nice in that regard as well. It is a bit on the heavy side, which helps dampen recoil, and the steel butt plate does smack some, but overall, a great tribute to the boys at Remington and the U.S. model 1917 rifle.
Remington should have kept the action around for building heavy magnums.
 
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Pathfinder45

New member
Good rifles in Walnut stocks are interesting, even if new. But I'm getting close to that point where only older rifles are truly interesting. Look how the steel buttplate is fitted to the stock on a pre-64 model 70 Winchester. Who does that anymore?
 
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Sure Shot Mc Gee

New member
Its always chancy to buy used. Especially when the meeting place isn't taken place in a gun shop. (without a doubt its very beneficial for a buyer wanting to have such a firearms serial number checked for theft prior its purchase.) Street purchases "Better to be safe than sorry." But its you're call and $850. Big thing down here in the lower 48 happening lately with the prospective buyers. Yup!! Being told by the seller >cash deal only. Then at the agreed meeting place one dummy robs the other dummy.
 
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Tuxedo007

New member
"Wasn't the model 70 Winchester in 30-'06 the rifle that Carlos Hathcock used in Viet Nam? "

Yes, you are correct. Am unable to lay my hands on my copy of his autobiography, but I think his rifle was equipped w/Redfield scope. I know from my reading about him that the NVA & VC had a very high price on his head.

I think he is credited with 193 confirmed kills.

Tuxedo007
 
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