Conservatives, fear not

GoSlash27

New member
Conservatives, fear not
Election Day is looming. But the Grand Old Party had gone off the rails, anyway — and that’s hardly an indictment of conservatism. In fact, given a chance, liberalism might simply shine a light on the wisdom of another way.

By Jonah Goldberg

"Cheer up," advised writer Philander Johnson, "for the worst is yet to come."

That's good advice for conservatives these days. Things are grim, particularly for the GOP. The share of Americans who describe themselves as Republicans is plummeting so quickly, pretty soon more voters will call themselves Hobbits than Republicans.

While Barack Obama is surprisingly weak given all of the Democrats' advantages, the smart money remains that the Democrats will capture the White House and expand their majorities in Congress considerably.

The issue climate is arguably even worse. From Social Security to health care to the environment, Democrats have the wind at their backs. If Obama continued to run from the left and won in November, Democrats would be able to claim the biggest mandate for liberalism since 1964.

Democrats would be able to dispatch a cavalry of young judicial reinforcements to renew the effort to push the courts ever further to the left. Some form of socialized medicine would be implemented. President Obama would in all likelihood fulfill his pledge to pull out of Iraq. Taxes would go up. Farm subsidies increase. State-level efforts to establish gay marriage by undemocratic fiat would find eager accomplices in Congress and the Justice Department. Draconian taxes on energy use — often hidden behind cap-and-trade schemes — would be implemented in the name of combating global warming. The "Fairness Doctrine" might be restored to silence conservative media. There are even rumors that House Speaker Nancy Pelosi is pondering legislation that would require dogs to take orders from cats.

Plight of the right

The knife of doom cuts deeper still. The intellectual press is positively brimming with mostly gleeful autopsy reports about conservatism's alleged demise. In a wandering piece for The New Yorker, titled "The Fall of Conservatism," George Packer simultaneously argues that the right is out of ideas and that it really never had any worth speaking of in the first place. In discussions, public and private, you often hear phrases such as brain-dead, spent, exhausted, used up, played-out-like-Carrot Top and the like to describe the plight of the right.

A particularly popular line of argument found all over the place holds that conservatism is a pale shadow of what it was in the days of Ronald Reagan, Barry Goldwater and now William F. Buckley. Indeed, many liberals have adopted the annoying habit of talking about Reagan, Goldwater and Buckley as if they have always loved and respected them. It reminds one of that line from Stripes where Bill Murray says to his girlfriend, "Tito Puente's gonna be dead, and you're gonna say, 'Oh, I've been listening to him for years, and I think he's fabulous.' "

Regardless, all this gloom and doom is overdone. Conservatives have a natural inclination toward pessimism. Back in 1968 — when Packer et al thought conservatism was ascendant — many conservatives thought it was done. Richard Nixon's thoroughly liberal domestic agenda, and the willingness of conservatives to tolerate it, was proof according to conservative intellectual Brent Bozell that conservatism had "ceased to be an important political force in America."

People need to remember that there's a difference between "conservatives" and "Republicans." One reason the Republican "brand" has been so badly tarnished is that Republicans lost credibility as conservatives. They spent money like a pimp with a week to live. They got comfortable with power and the perks that come with it, and they tolerated cronyism and incompetence. And while the GOP is the more conservative of the two parties — and hence the natural home for the American right — it needs to be remembered that Republican failures are not synonymous with conservative ones.

Also, the strength of the conservative establishment shouldn't be discounted. In 1964, Goldwater was almost alone, relying on a couple of magazines to champion his cause. Today, there is an enormous conservative intellectual infrastructure, largely independent of the Republican Party. From proliferating state-level think tanks to massive organizations based in Washington, D.C., such as the Heritage Foundation and American Enterprise Institute, the causes of limited government, defending life and promoting free markets are hardly without champions. And thanks to talk radio, Fox News and a general acceptance of conservatism as a legitimate viewpoint, it has never been easier for conservatives to get their arguments to the public.

Reality bites

Reality could yet prove to be the grinder for a lot of liberal baloney. After New York Mayor Ed Koch lost his re-election bid, he was asked whether he would ever run again. He responded, "No, the people threw me out. Now they must be punished." There's a lot of wisdom in that. Parties — and voters — learn from their own mistakes and those of others.

"Example is the school of mankind," noted Edmund Burke, the founder of modern conservatism, "and they will learn at no other."

The GOP made some awful blunders, and it is paying the price for them. But such payments can also purchase redemption if you learn the right lessons.

Moreover, if conservatives are right about their ideas — and I think they are — then socialized medicine won't work, high taxes will be counterproductive, and Obama's promise to mesmerize foreign leaders with his listening skills will not survive contact with our enemies. Al-Qaeda will not defang itself into a Muslim version of the Shriners simply because our president's middle name is Hussein.

T.S. Eliot was right. There are no truly won causes because there are no truly lost causes. Conservatism's got a lot of life left in it, in part because conservatism is simply a part of American life. And because conservatism has always done better on offense than on defense, the coming liberal maelstrom might be carrying with it the seeds of a conservative revival as well.

Once in a blue moon I find myself in 100% agreement with a political commentary. This is one of those times. I'd be less distressed about it if not for the fact that Jonah Goldberg is one of the "conservatives" that helped bring this situation about in the first place. A little mea culpa on his part might have been a nice gesture.
 

jdc1244

New member
People need to remember that there's a difference between "conservatives" and "Republicans." One reason the Republican "brand" has been so badly tarnished is that Republicans lost credibility as conservatives. They spent money like a pimp with a week to live. They got comfortable with power and the perks that come with it, and they tolerated cronyism and incompetence. And while the GOP is the more conservative of the two parties — and hence the natural home for the American right — it needs to be remembered that Republican failures are not synonymous with conservative ones.

Be that as it may, the failure of conservatism has as much to do their Faustian pact with the social/religious right as the co-opted Republican Party. When conservatives return to their traditional focus on individual rights and limiting the role of government and abandon this ‘social issues/Christian fundamentalism’ nonsense, we’ll see more Americans moving to the right.
 

Forwardassist

New member
Can't say I agree with the article. It looks like the Dems will sweep congress and the White house. They will likely give all those undocumented immigrants citizenship which will guarantee them the growing Hispanic vote in the future. It looks very grim for conservatives for a very long time into the future. Though their will be another Republican president but to win he will have to socially moderate compared to current Republicans.
 

STAGE 2

New member
I love this assumption that once things get worse, the public will suddenly wake up and vote conservative. Not only is that an assumption not supported by any facts, its a double assumption that presumes we can fix the problems created by liberal government.

How long ago was the new deal and the great society enacted. How much of that are we still dealing with. The political reality is that once something is done, it nearly impossible to undo it. Add to this the fact that there are many people who simply won't change their views and this is going to be disasterous.
 

GoSlash27

New member
I love this assumption that once things get worse, the public will suddenly wake up and vote conservative.
As opposed to the assumption that voting for a liberal with an R after his name will fix the problem? :rolleyes:
 

LightningJoe

New member
The problem is, it's not 1964. Back then, Conservatism might have been out of power, but the whole culture and worldview pretty much supported Conservative ideas. The Conservative movement had to spend a little time in the wilderness, but it had plenty of provisions stored up to see it through.


Now, there's nothing like that. Conservatism is broke and in debt. Sent out into the wilderness, it'd either starve or live off the land like a savage.
 

jrfoxx

New member
There are even rumors that House Speaker Nancy Pelosi is pondering legislation that would require dogs to take orders from cats.

thats my line in the sand, right there! 'Scuse me, I'm off to dig up my guns for the revolution! :p


Seriously, this is gona be an UGLY 8 years (if it's that short) of Dems with a HUGE majority of power.The only hope, is that the Dems screw things up SO badly in the next 8 years, people will be screaming for "change!" again to fix it (which I predict is VERY likely what will happen).The problem with that is, the Republicicans will likely be too scared, still, to run a true conservative, or take any real conservative stances on policy, and we'll end up with a Republican president and congress, but they will make McCain look like Reagan, so we're no better off.

Only hope here that I can see, is that the Dems screww up as I predict, the Republicans that run against them in 8 years look too much like Dems for people to see it as the "change!" they want to fix things, and we see some of the 3rd parties start to gain some real notice with the population, and we can break the cycle of Dem-Repub-Dem-Repub thats been happening forever now, where nothing but the letters by peoples names really changes. If people get ticked off at the screw ups of BOTH parties bad enough, peole may start to look at, and take, Libertarian, Constitution, etc partyies, and thier platform seriously, insteda of writing them off as "fringe whack-jobs" like they are mainly viewed now. Worst case, at least maybe we get 3 or 4 serious, have a legit chance to win, choices in the future.

and IMHO, worst case scenario, more choices is better than the same 2 choices over and over and over......

with more people, with different views (beyond the strict D/R party lines/platforms we have now), we at least stand a better chance of getting to elect someone that isnt a totally worthless.


JMHO
 

zukiphile

New member
lighting said:
The problem is, it's not 1964. Back then, Conservatism might have been out of power, but the whole culture and worldview pretty much supported Conservative ideas. The Conservative movement had to spend a little time in the wilderness, but it had plenty of provisions stored up to see it through.


Now, there's nothing like that. Conservatism is broke and in debt. Sent out into the wilderness, it'd either starve or live off the land like a savage.

Historical perspective doesn’t allow this level of pessimism.

It isn’t 1964 or 1976. However US culture, especially political culture, was not conspicuously conservative in 1964. At that point it had been three full decades since anyone had held the presidency who though economic freedom of markets was a good thing. Throughout most of that period marginal income tax rates were stratospherically high, and the country was about to embrace an expansion of the federal government well beyond the new deal.

stage2 said:
I love this assumption that once things get worse, the public will suddenly wake up and vote conservative. Not only is that an assumption not supported by any facts, its a double assumption that presumes we can fix the problems created by liberal government.

How long ago was the new deal and the great society enacted. How much of that are we still dealing with. The political reality is that once something is done, it nearly impossible to undo it. Add to this the fact that there are many people who simply won't change their views and this is going to be disasterous.

I know quite a few people who espouse the rationale that it is better to have Obama engage in four years of high profile failure, so that people will be outraged and swing back to a somewhat mythical reaganite vigor.

The two enormous problems with this rationale are:

1) It assumes that the evidence of failure will be so obvious within four years that voters will be able to discern it depsite favourable media treatment. This is the same media whose main story in 1984 was about a homelessness crisis, even though the economy had started an extraordinary expansion.

2) It commits the fallacy of post hoc ergo propter hoc, and attributes Reagan’s landslide to Carter’s election and subsequent performance. While this obviously can’t explain Reagan’s second term, it less obviously misses the reason for Reagan’s first term - an intellectual foundation had been laid by Goldwater and Buckley for a generation who had a problem with government that the prior generations didn’t.



This pendulum theory of failure and renewal is demonstrably false. None of the enormous expansions of government of FDR, Johnson or Carter were rescinded. On the contrary, they became the new baseline for additional growth. Elect an enthusiast for nationalisation of the healthcare portion of the economy, and you will help establish that as a baseline for further nationalisation.
 

JWT

New member
Electing Obama will significantly increase the government intervention and control of everything we do. And of course reguire significant tax increases to pay for all the social programs he's already suggested or hinted at.

His position on gun ownership is especially frightening. Logical to assume it would be given that he rose up from the Chicago Democratic machine and their love for gun control.
 

HKuser

New member
...abandon this ‘social issues/Christian fundamentalism’ nonsense, we’ll see more Americans moving to the right.

Eh, one of those "social issues" is gun ownership. Be careful what you wish for.

The first G.H.W. Bush's presidency was barren, but within 2 years thereafter the Democratic Congress was thrown out of power for 12 years. Two years of Obama would do the same, except I don't think he has Bill's ability to triangulate his way into a second term if he wins the first, which certainly is not assured. I think that this election has as much chance to resemble 1972 or 1980 as it does 1964.
 

Mikeyboy

New member
Be that as it may, the failure of conservatism has as much to do their Faustian pact with the social/religious right as the co-opted Republican Party. When conservatives return to their traditional focus on individual rights and limiting the role of government and abandon this ‘social issues/Christian fundamentalism’ nonsense, we’ll see more Americans moving to the right.

JDC1244 hit the nail on the head!

The religious right and the Neo-con talking heads ruined the republican party and the conservative movement. I'm sorry but there is too much self rightous, kool aid BS on the right side of the park as there is on the left. They have become the polar opposite of the liberal democrats but they basically act the same. I'll vote this way because they are voting that way is not how run to a country.

Honestly Conservatism has become Fascism and Liberalism has become Socialism. We need a solid third party.
 
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azredhawk44

Moderator
What exactly is conservatism without the social issues? Concrete positions please?

It is the absense of government making ANY laws regarding an issue. It is leaving individual choice and freedom in the hands of the states and the people.

It is limiting Federal taxes to a minimalist level, and allowing people to tax themselves at local levels for programs that matter to them locally, rather than spending Federal tax pork dollars on local parks and bridges.

It is leaving retirement planning in the hands of the individual to build, rather than subscribing to the social security ponzi scheme that increases the debt burden of every successive generation... just to buy the votes of AARP and old people in general.

It does not legislate morality. It merely enacts laws that protect the rights of the individual, then enforces breaches of the rights of the individual by punishing the offender rather than abridging the rights of many.
 

HKuser

New member
It does not legislate morality. It merely enacts laws that protect the rights of the individual, then enforces breaches of the rights of the individual by punishing the offender rather than abridging the rights of many.

Nope, not concrete. What exactly do you have a problem with? Outlawing abortion fits your definition depending on your outlook, and can be defended with no reference to religion. All laws are a legislation of someone's morality. There are some who would argue that outlawing guns fits your definition.
 

STAGE 2

New member
As opposed to the assumption that voting for a liberal with an R after his name will fix the problem?

Neither I nor anyone is assuming McCain will "fix" anything. He will, however, not be anywhere as damaging as Obama. That is a fact, not an assumption. You have to remember that its very likely that the dems are going to win more seats in congress than they even have now.

So this choice is a republican president with a democratic congress or a democratic president with a democratic congress. Which do you think is going to be more disasterous.

The two enormous problems with this rationale are:

1) It assumes that the evidence of failure will be so obvious within four years that voters will be able to discern it depsite favourable media treatment. This is the same media whose main story in 1984 was about a homelessness crisis, even though the economy had started an extraordinary expansion.

2) It commits the fallacy of post hoc ergo propter hoc, and attributes Reagan’s landslide to Carter’s election and subsequent performance. While this obviously can’t explain Reagan’s second term, it less obviously misses the reason for Reagan’s first term - an intellectual foundation had been laid by Goldwater and Buckley for a generation who had a problem with government that the prior generations didn’t.



This pendulum theory of failure and renewal is demonstrably false. None of the enormous expansions of government of FDR, Johnson or Carter were rescinded. On the contrary, they became the new baseline for additional growth. Elect an enthusiast for nationalisation of the healthcare portion of the economy, and you will help establish that as a baseline for further nationalisation.

I see someone else gets it. Paying attention to history is a must and something many people have neglected to do .
 

thallub

New member
Be that as it may, the failure of conservatism has as much to do their Faustian pact with the social/religious right as the co-opted Republican Party. When conservatives return to their traditional focus on individual rights and limiting the role of government and abandon this ‘social issues/Christian fundamentalism’ nonsense, we’ll see more Americans moving to the right.


Exactly. The Republican party made a very big boo-boo when it got entangled with the Falwell-Robertson bunch. Issues with real substance went away to be supplanted by feel good issues like prayer in schools, display of the Ten Commandments, flag burning and gay marriage.

In 2006, the RNC sensed the mood of the country after many years of a do nothing Republican congress. Instead of doing something of substance, the RNC trotted out their "American values agenda." This had worked several times before, surely it would work again-wrong!!!

In 2006 the Republican lead congress spent 17 billion dollars on pork barrel projects. Then they cut seven million dollars from military brain injury research.
 

DieHard06

New member
The republicans will never win another big election without the social conservatives. We were a big part of the deciding factor that put Bush into a second term. McCain is a departure from the usual social conservative side and is a big reason why many conservatives don't support him. He will not be able to win the election without the social conservatives nor will any Republican candidate for President. In the primary the social conservatives were divided on who to pick because all of the canidates pretty much stunk, except maybe Huckabee who lacked in other areas. The reason we lost so many representatives in 2006 has nothing to with running a family values campaign and everything to do with all the scandals and failed promises that proved that they effectually had no family values to begin with.
 

zukiphile

New member
In 2006 the Republican lead congress spent 17 billion dollars on pork barrel projects. Then they cut seven million dollars from military brain injury research.

That repubs in congress have not distinguished themselves is true. To call the congress "Republican lead" is a bit misleading. They had slim margins that afforded something short of control.

Be that as it may, the failure of conservatism has as much to do their Faustian pact with the social/religious right as the co-opted Republican Party. When conservatives return to their traditional focus on individual rights and limiting the role of government and abandon this ‘social issues/Christian fundamentalism’ nonsense, we’ll see more Americans moving to the right.

Exactly. The Republican party made a very big boo-boo when it got entangled with the Falwell-Robertson bunch. Issues with real substance went away to be supplanted by feel good issues like prayer in schools, display of the Ten Commandments, flag burning and gay marriage.

I think that is a grave misdiagnosis.

First, like him or not, Falwell was a part of the coalition that brought Reagan in. That very big "boo-boo" is what created the shift from virtually unbroken democrat control of the federal government since 1932.

Second, if you think that the correct course politically is to yield each time a faction of the cultural left seeks to eliminate traditions of respect for national symbols, scrub public life clean of historic religious sentiments, or seek state sanction of unusual practices as marriage, then you've missed bits of the tradition that a conservative would seek to conserve. Further, Repubs didn't raise these issues, but were the vehicle by which people resisted these unpopular and constitutionally dubious innovations.

In 2006, the RNC sensed the mood of the country after many years of a do nothing Republican congress. Instead of doing something of substance, the RNC trotted out their "American values agenda." This had worked several times before, surely it would work again-wrong!!!

That you would not support an action does not render it insubstantial. I suggest that you saw problems for repubs in 2006 because of unfavorable press for the result of overseas commitments and resulting fatigue, as well as a lack of a compelling and coherent message, such as the one set forth in 1994.
 
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