Confused about my 270 Win Reloads

[KnightofCydonia]

Can you guys help me figure out my next step? All reloads are 3.405" COAL for my rifle, just off the lands.


May 1, 2019 I loaded FL sized brass IMR 4831 53.5gr, 54.0gr, and 54.5gr. I got 0.81" (53.5gr), 1.76" (54.0gr), and 2.73" (54.5gr) at 100 meters.

Ok, so I try my uncle's RCBS NS die with the two most accurate loads 53.5gr and 54.0gr and shoot groups on Aug 2, 2019. Accuracy opens up at 100 meters with both loads: 1.42" (53.5gr) and 2.71" (54.0gr). At 200 meters the 53.5gr opens up to 2-4".

I was confused and wanted to try NS with a Lee Collet Die to see if there was better performance, so I loaded up 53.5gr and shot at 100 and 200 meters today, Aug 23, 2019. Even worse accuracy, and it may be due to my unfamiliarity using the Lee Collet die. I also reloaded a batch of FL sized 53.5gr and it shot as great or better than the first loading in May.

Lee Collet Die 53.5gr 2.95" @ 100m

Lee Collet Die 53.5gr 3.72" @ 200m

Lee FL Size 53.5gr 0.79" @ 100m with 1 flyer.

So at this point I have two options. I can adjust the powder charge if NS. I've read that a fire-formed case may have increased velocity with the same weight of powder, and decreasing the powder charge may help improve accuracy. Should I try loading the NS brass at 53.0gr (1/2 a grain less) and see if the groups shrink back down to sub-MOA? At this point, I need a load for hunting season and I'm going to settle on FL sized 53.5gr and raise the elevation a bit to zero at 200m for whitetail/mule deer this Fall.

Any further suggestions?

 

[RaySendero]

KnightofCydonia asked:

Can you guys help me figure out my next step?

How about a step back:
You sure all's right with that rifle?

 

[KnightofCydonia]

I haven't noticed any issues with it. Do you think the screws being loose or bedding is an issue here?

 

[Doyle]

What about barrel cleaning? Is the barrel now getting fouled? Was it freshly cleaned the first time? Did you clean it between the first time and later times? Lots of variables just with cleaning alone.

 

[RaySendero]

Well...I don't know just seems something may not be right.
Have you had it apart? If so how's it bedded?

 

[KnightofCydonia]

I cleaned it before shooting it and shoot 1 fouling shot before shooting for groups. I let the barrel cool in between shots. I clean the rifle after the range session.

I'm just confused why my FL loads are fine, but NS loads using two different brands (RCBS and Lee) are less accurate.

 

[DockRock]

IMR4831 is temperature sensitive and 53.5 grs is getting up towards max. Any pressure signs in the August load? Was there a big temperature swing between the May shooting and the August shooting? Seems a little far-fetched, but if you have ruled out a loose scope, filthy barrel, and are loading exactly the same as the May rounds...

 

[jmr40]

Try some quality factory loads. And/or try your loads in a different rifle. Have to decide if the problem is the rifle, or the ammo

 

[F. Guffey]

How about a step back:
You sure all's right with that rifle?

Ray, when I take a rifle to the range the one thing I do not want to see is a target that looks like it was hit with a shotgun. The only ones I am responsible for are the ones I put together.

The last 270 rifle I built went to the range with 12 loads of 10 rounds each, I use 12 different cases with as many different powders I had and different bullets. It did not move the scope between groups, I did not have a group larger than the diameter of a quarter, the groups moved around and some shared the same hole. And I did not have a flyer.

the 12 different loads is a JIC thing; I made up the 12 loads up just in case the rifle liked a load more than it liked another load, or another case or bullet etc. the rifle went to the new owner with an additional 12 different loads of 10 rounds each with 12 different case heads etc.

I called the new owner to find out what the rifle liked, he said the rifle liked everything, all he had to do was shot 1 round and then then adjust the scope to the hole.

And then I put a 7MM57 together, same thing. The 7MM57 became the rifle of choice because it was not as heavy as the 270.

I did some strange things to increase bullet hold on a box of 7MM57 ammo for the 7MM57. this time he did not move adjust the scope after the first shot, He shot once, chambered another round, the results? One hole.

Again, when a rifle scatters bullets like a shot gun patters the work begins.

At one time his favorited rifle was the 300 Win Mag, and then? One day he discovered less noise, less shoulder abuse, expense and weight.

F. Guffey

 

[F. Guffey]

I'm just confused why my FL loads are fine, but NS loads using two different brands (RCBS and Lee) are less accurate.

I have Herter dies, Lee dies, Lyman dies, Hornady dies, old C&H does from El Monte, California, and I have RCBS dies, lots of RCBS dies; and I can measure the difference the dies make when full length sizing. And then there are shell holders, my shell holders do not match. For me that is not a problem because I can measure the difference between shell holders and brands of shell holders.

I feel like I have an advantage because my cases do not have head space and the difference in length between the chamber and case is called clearance when measuring from the shoulder of the case to the case head and from the shoulder of the chamber to the bolt face.

F. Guffey

 

[Bart B.]

Every group we shoot has its extreme spread the sum of all three variables in the system adding up in opposite directions. Two are the rifle and its ammo.

 

[HiBC]

If I went to the range with the expectation my NS loads would shoot better than my FL loads,I might be frustrated if it did not shoot that way.

If I went to the range without expectations and just shot to see what was true,I might decide that I was getting best results FL sizing and I might abandon neck sizing for that rifle.

Consider controlling or eliminating variables is one path to accuracy.
It might be ,for example,there is some eccentricity in your chamber.I'm just picking a random variable. Then when you NS,how the round clocks in the chamber may actually double the eccentricity or offset it.

That can show up on target


The FL brass will be closer to being restored to a uniform standard each shot.

It can be argued a little clearance between the brass and chamber allows everything to float and self center..

I don't claim to know.

I have owned rifles in the 3000 fps + intensity that tended to metal foul. They deteriorated n accuracy after 30 to 50 rounds.

Cleaning the powder fouling with Hoppes was not enough.They needed de-coppering.. So I played with copper solvents,JB,etc.


Removng copper restored accuracy...for a while. High intensity and tight twist ,along with factory production barrels seemed to contribute.
Powder selection: It might be IMR4831 is the best powder you could use. I don't know. I tend to look at the target.If my groups are deteriorating as I approach max....Hmmm I might clean the bore between powders and try some H4831 SC, or RE-19 and 22, maybe a 4350, eyc,just to see what I get.


And yes,I'd check guard screw torque ,barrel channel contact,etc.


How s your bench/bag technique? Do you have something comfortable and repeatable? Or are you making do with stacked up pants leg rice bags on a six pack cooler? Is your face and eye finding the sghts exactly the same...?


Does recoil and fatigue and frustration stack up? I don't know.


I've just found some ways to open my own groups


Good luck

 

[Nathan]

HiBC... Your whole post was great! I did select a particularly important point to quote...

If I went to the range with the expectation my NS loads would shoot better than my FL loads,I might be frustrated if it did not shoot that way.

If I went to the range without expectations and just shot to see what was true,I might decide that I was getting best results FL sizing and I might abandon neck sizing for that rifle.

This is the mentality of load development. If you go at it with the idea that NS is better, but it is worse on paper, you have to be willing to be wrong and go with what is best.

There is some inconsistency in this whole thing, 0.81” to almost 3” is a lot of deviation.

In the end, for each part and sub part, pick a variable, adjust, then shoot that way until you come back to it.

Part: Rifle, Optic, Bullet, Powder, Primer, Tooling, shooter, Rest

Sub Part(Tooling) - NS vs FS....so FS Has proven better, move on.

For big improvements, I would work on shooter, rest and bullet first.

Don’t be afraid to buy 100 factory rounds and shoot some 3-5 shot groups playing with your hold, aim, rest features. This will help you establish a good base. Also, shoot 5 5 shot groups with no changes and see how may times it looks like a flyer that you didn’t call....that can be your optic throwing a shot. To me you have too many flyers. That signals shooter, rest or optic. If you are shooting bug holes with everything you touch off that rest, optic?

Bullet is key to big changes too. Gotta select a bullet that can be made to shoot well in your rifle. Sorry, but that is often trial and frustration until you are like wow! Epiphany! Golden bullet!

 

[hounddawg]

it's a six pound hunting rifle with a sporter barrel which will heat up fast. What they are designed for is being easy to carry and getting off one or two shots at game. They are not designed for doing five or ten shot groups. You could get tighter groups from a F Class rifle but do you want to lug a 15 pound rifle around in the woods? I wouldn't.

Concentrate on what matters, the first and second shots. If you can get those in the kill zone ten times out of ten the rifle is good to go. If you want to shoot good groups go with a target gun, just don't expect it to make a good hunting rifle

 

[zeke]

One concern might be your powder charges start over Hodgen's listed max of 53.0 grains (IMR4831) for a 150 gn Hornady sp using Win brass. Any indication of the velocity's being obtained?

As others indicated, how are you resting the front/back of rifle when testing groups? And it might be a bit much to expect light weight hunting rifle to hold statisticool groups. If you have a safe accurate load, might consider shooting a single/2 shot group one day, then repeat for several days to see if it holds poa-poi. And check how far off a clean bore shot is from dirty bore shot, and difference between a warm barrel/cold barrel shot.

Another question might be how are you centering and locking down your NS (neck sizing?) die?

 

[hounddawg]

If you have a safe accurate load, might consider shooting a single/2 shot group one day, then repeat for several days to see if it holds poa-poi. And check how far off a clean bore shot is from dirty bore shot, and difference between a warm barrel/cold barrel shot.

great answer Zeke

Also if it will not hold poa/poi might check to see if the action screws are torqued properly ot if you do not have a torque screwdriver get a local gunsmith to check it for you

 

[RaySendero]

F. Guffey wrote:

RaySedndero wrote:
How about a step back:
You sure all's right with that rifle?

Ray, when I take a rifle to the range the one thing I do not want to see is a target that looks like it was hit with a shotgun. The only ones I am responsible for are the ones I put together.

Guffey, do not address me again!
Your posts are nothing but self centered and make no sense to me.

 

[RaySendero]

Knight,

I see and understand the difference your getting between FL and NSing.
I've just have not had a Rem M700 that was finicky.

Think it would be worth your while to take it apart and check bedding.
Re-torque screws to proper in-lbs.
Try it with your best FL sized reload.
Add a pressure point an 1" on so from the fore end tip and try it again.

Just think the rifle should be more accurate as a whole than what I'm seeing.
You may just find an acorn.

 

[AgedWarrior]

Two things stand out to me when I look at all the info originally posted.

First, the rifle shoots better at 53.5 grains than it does with 54 or 54.5. I would stop trying to get more velocity and stick with what shoots most accurately. I did not see any velocities mentioned, so I assume you never shot em through a chronograph. I am guessing that if you did you would find your 53.5 load probably has less deviation in velocities from round to round and that is helpful for accuracy.

Second, your rifle does not like your neck sized rounds as much as it does full sized cases. Some have already suggested why that might be. Neck sizing is not always an advantage. If it does not produce desired effects, leave it alone. Your groups are quite respectable with full length sizing and 53.5, why not stick with it? Deer you shoot will not notice the slightly less velocity, and your shots will be better placed for max effectiveness.

 

[KnightofCydonia]

Thanks everybody for all the sage advice. I agree that I will abandon neck sizing for now (hunting season) and stick with FL 53.5gr for my deer load this Fall. Once deer season is over, I'll try tinkering with a reduced powder charge/seating depth with NS and see if there's any improvement.

My shooting technique is off a rear and front rest. I try to watch my breathing, squeeze the trigger, and ensure consistent head placement on the stock. I have a bit of downward pressure on the stock with my support hand forward of the magazine to prevent the rifle from kicking up from recoil.