Concealed? (long)

James K

Member In Memoriam
Hi, guys,

When carrying a concealed weapon, it is sometimes well to remember that concealed really means concealed. Why worry, when the carry is legal? I have referred from time to time to an incident that taught me a lesson. With your kind permission to be overlong, here is the whole story.

It happened to a friend of mine, whom I will call Jack, because that is his name. Jack, since retired, was a detective lieutenant on the police force of a small Pennsylvania city. One day, he received the type of phone call all detectives have learned to dread. His wife wanted him to stop on the way home and pick up some bread, milk, and cereal.

Jack didn't live in the city, but in the adjacent township. He stopped at a supermarket just outside the city to do his shopping. Now Jack carried a Colt Detective Special in a Berns Martin holster, even then an obsolete rig. As he bent over to pick up a box of Raisin Bran, a small boy sitting on the edge of the lower shelf reading the backs of the cereal boxes looked up under Jack's coat and saw the gun.

"HELP!" he screamed, running to his mother. "Mommy, mommy, man's got a gun bad man bad man!!" And so on. Mommy, grasping her child to her body to protect the little darling, ran screaming to the front of the store, yelling that a man with a gun was shooting people. Of course no shots had been fired, but reason is a stranger to fear. Hearing the woman screaming, both customers and clerks abandoned the checkouts and fled the store. The mall merchants had hired a part-time deputy sheriff to direct traffic, and the store manager ran to him, saying that an armed criminal was running amok in the store.

The deputy drew his .32 breaktop revolver and, exhibiting perhaps more courage than common sense, ran into the store. Jack, seeing the armed deputy, immediately threw up his arms and yelled, "I surrender!" After allowing the deputy to disarm him, Jack tried to tell the nervous man that he was a police officer. The deputy responded to the effect that no one was going to fool him with that old line. So, the deputy marched Jack, at gunpoint, out of the store.

In the meantime, someone had called the police. What was said on the telephone is not known, but the radio call went out as an armed robbery, with possible hostage situation. That, as you might guess, got some attention. A township car and a city car pulled into the parking lot almost simultaneously, nearly running into each other. Four cops got out, guns drawn, just as the deputy and his prisoner emerged from the market, the deputy loudly proclaiming that he had captured the dangerous gunman.

The city guys, naturally recognizing their own lieutenant, broke up and came very close to rolling around on the ground. The township cops, not knowing Jack, were in two-hand hold, combat crouch, wondering why the city cops were laughing their asses off.

Things got straightened out, finally. One of the city uniforms told the deputy that the bad guy was really a good guy, and the deputy, dreams of a medal and a big reward no longer dancing in his head, went back to his post to try to unsnarl the now absolutely awful traffic mess.

Thanks to some adroit handling by the police PR guy, the episode never made the news, but I don't need to say that Jack was never allowed to forget it.

And I don't need to say that if Jack had been a licensed citizen instead of a police officer, he would probably have had a lot more than embarrassment to face.

Jim
 

TBeck

New member
Jack screwed up. He should have started waving his hands madly and run screaming out of the store with the rest of the customers. :)

Seriously, concealed does mean concealed. In Florida if I display my weapon in a threatening or careless manner I have committed a crime, unless of course, I am displaying with the intent of stopping the commission of another crime. "Display" includes allowing the gun to be seen even if still holstered. It's another reason why I like fannypacks.
 

Erik

New member
Another thing- many LEOs not of the lieutenant's stature would be in their Seargeant's office. That's a bad place to be in circumstances like this... :(

Erik
 

Eric H

New member
If Jack were a civilian, wouldn't that be brandishing a weapon? If so, that would be grounds to lose you carry permit (at least in Washington). That's why you gotta be super careful about what you wear (rig and clothes).
 

LongDuck

New member
Good thread, but remember that not everybody's laws are so strict as what you mention. For instance, here in AZ, what you are calling 'brandishing', we call 'open-carry'.

One of the nice things about this common-sense legislation about concealed carry is that if you accidentally show your weapon during concealment, you're still legal under the law of open-carrying.

I just don't understand why Florida would allow concealed carry, but make it a brandishing charge if your jacket rides up or your body build causes your weapon to be noticed. Just doesn't make any sense...
 

Red Bull

New member
I agree about Arizona. We all live in different areas and laws/cultures apply differently, so it is not fair to judge others by your situation.
I carry openly all the time. I carry concealed sometimes and I really don't care if someone sees it. It is bascially concealed because %99 of the sheeple will not notice it, and if a few do, who cares, I carry openly anyway, and it is legally and culturally a norm here.
I don't think we should have to live our lives around the wishes of the sheeple. If some idiot sees my gun and calls the Police, then he will soon figure out that he is in AZ and everyone here carries a gun. The sheeple must be educated, not catered to. That little boy learned that not everyone who carries a gun is a bad man (What idiot told him THAT anyway?).
Every place is different. In Arizona, you only conceal if you want to.
 

dinosaur

New member
Red Bull
I seem to remember some years ago a tv news piece about an old timer in Az. who carried openly everywhere he went. Even with the slant that he was "eccentric", I thought he got his point over quite well.
 

James K

Member In Memoriam
Hi, guys,

Thought this would stir comment.

FWIW, "brandish" is defined in the dictionary and the law as "to shake or wave a weapon menacingly; to exhibit a weapon in an ostentatious or aggressive manner". This would not seem to fit a case where a gun is merely seen accidentally. "Display" might fit that case, but I guess a court would decide if it came to that.

Libertarian: You have my OK to copy and post, but would appreciate not using my name.

Jim
 

David Scott

New member
Here in Florida, if you let the holstered weapon show even accidentally, the police/courts can interpret that as "brandishing". I think the idea is just what you described in the supermarket; that innocents seeing a gun will panic. This has some value in helping the licensed citizen avoid situations where the cops might mistakenly shoot him.

The other value to keeping it truly "concealed" is that, if Joe Badguy knows you're carrying, he might decide to slip up behind you, whack you on the head and run off with your weapon.

It's nice that Arizona is less restrictive, but if I lived there I would still keep the weapon concealed. Not by law but by choice.


------------------
Dave
Deep in the Florida Swamps
 

Zach Vonler

New member
My take on why the pistol must stay concealed (as here in Texas) is because the courts do not want to deal with the situation where someone "accidentally" lets another person see their gun as a form of threat. The court doesn't want to have to decide why the gun was seen, only that it was.
 

Steve Smith

New member
Colorado is much like AZ in this matter. Open Carry is protected by the Colorado Constitution. While I RARELY carry openly(I'd hate to be the first guy that's shot!), if per chance my gun is in view, I'm still legal.
 

RickB

New member
From following various threads on various sites, it has become obvious that there is more than one definition of "concealed". When I carry concealed, that means that even if someone knew that I was carrying, they couldn't detect the gun. Some people think that putting a shirt on over their gun means it's concealed; a bystander can't tell for sure that the bulge on the hip is a gun. I don't buy the idea that everyone who is wearing a fanny pack is assumed to packing, but I also don't think walking around with an obvious bulge on your hip is "concealed".
 
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