Concealed Carry Florida Question

[bn12gg]

I am faculty at a State University in Florida. I have had a Florida
Concealed Carry Permit for several years. There seems to be some
confusion (I'm confused) over whether (or not) I can have a firearm
locked in my vehicle while on campus. I'm not under any pressure
from the powers that be-- but they actually disagree. A Major on
the campus Police force claims it is "ok" for me to keep a firearm in
my locked truck while a University attorney claims "no" saying this
is not permitted. Hmmmmm they disagree!

I would like to follow the rule-- But, I'm confused as to just what
the actual rule is. I've reviewed the Florida Statute on the matter
and it reads sort of nebulous! Gray!

Any thoughts?

Thanks. A first post. David

 

[bn12gg]

I guess I should have put this thread below in "Law and Civil Rights"
Sorry, first post-- I'll learn.

David

 

[Aguila Blanca]

Why don't you post the statute for us to read?

Off the top of my head, I'm going to guess that it's okay under state law but contrary to a university regulation.

 

[Shootin Chef]

760.06
(12) No license issued pursuant to this section shall authorize any person to carry a concealed weapon or fi rearm into any place of nuisance as defined in s. 823.05; any police, sheriff, or highway patrol station; any detention facility, prison, or jail; any courthouse; any courtroom, except that nothing in this section would preclude a judge from carrying a concealed weapon or determining who will carry a concealed weapon in his or her courtroom; any polling place; any meeting of the governing body of a county, public school district, municipality, or special district; any meeting of the Legislature or a committee thereof; any school, college, or professional athletic event not related to firearms; any school administration building; any portion of an establishment licensed to dispense alcoholic beverages for consumption on the premises, which portion of the establishment is primarily devoted to such purpose; any elementary or secondary school facility; any career center; any college or university facility unless the licensee is a registered student, employee, or faculty member of such college or university and the weapon is a stun gun or nonlethal electric weapon or device designed solely for defensive purposes and the weapon does not fire a dart or projectile; inside the passenger terminal and sterile area of any airport, provided that no person shall be prohibited from carrying any legal firearm into the terminal, which firearm is encase for shipment for purposes of checking such firearm as baggage to be lawfully transported on any aircraft; or any place where the carrying of firearms is prohibited by federal law. Any person who willfully violates any provision of this subsection commits a misdemeanor of the second degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or s. 775.083.

Paraphrase: Persons possessing a concealed handgun license are prohibited from carrying their firearm on an educational institution's land and sponsored functions to include athletic competitions, dances, parties, or any extracurricular activities. Registered students and faculty are however allowed to carry non-lethal self defense items provided that the items do not fire a projectile.
Source: http://www.concealedcampus.org/stateinfo.php?sid=70&fd=lpcc&name=Florida

Florida allows, by law, vehicle conceal carry as long as it is "securely encased" (i.e. you have to perform some action before drawing the weapon, such as opening a box or unbuttoning a snap). Vehicle carry without a permit is permitted when concealed even if it is not "securely encased" if the firearm is not "readily accessible" (i.e. in the trunk).
You're not allowed to carry on person in a vehicle (exceptions made that do not apply to this situation).

Going by this information, so long as your weapon remains in your vehicle you are abiding by both aspects of the law since the firearm never leaves your property (the vehicle) to enter onto their land. This could, and probably will after I post this , be argued.

 

[bn12gg]

Shootin Chef- Thanks for the paraphrase interpretation. The idea
that the firearm never leaves my secure property (Truck) and enters
their land (campus) is a concept the non legal mind (me) had missed
in reading the Statute.

Much appreciated!

David

 

[Aguila Blanca]

Shootin Chef -

The statute you cited covers only "carry" -- which is wearing the firearm on your person or holding it in your hand. It does not address transport in a vehicle, or storage in a vehicle.

If your rather novel view of "your property" vs. "their property" had any legal validity, then high school students and faculty all over the country would be able to store guns in their cars and the schools wouldn't have anything to say about it, and the Federal and state school zone laws would not apply.

 

[jcsturgeon]

I would guess that like most college campuses guns are banned. So while in Florida it may be perfectly legal to carry a gun in the car at your particular university it may be a breech of policy. Either way, I wouldn't bother.

As a student I had spent the morning at the shooting range only to accidentally drive to campus with my trunk stuffed full of guns, luckily no one found out and I remembered from then on to make sure my gear didn't follow me to campus.

 

[bn12gg]

Aquila B-- Thanks for weighing in. Do you think the Statute is
purposely difficult to interpret as it regards storing a firearm in a
locked vehicle on campus at a public university? You have to wonder
just how many firearms are actually in a campus parking lot during
a football game. I bet many hundreds. No signs are posted upon
arrival on campus that firearms can not be brought on campus in
a personal vehicle. Someone ought to modify the Statute and say
"yes you can" or "no you can't". It would appear, that either our
Police Dept or General Counsel Office is incorrect.

Why not just post the Statute number under a statement that
Firearms Are Illegal On a Public University Campus in Florida. ?

Thanks

.02 David

 

[bn12gg]

Sturgeon- Your experience shooting before/after being on campus
is exactly what drove me to speak with our Police Department. I
wanted to follow the rule, so I went into the Police Department and
asked if it was "ok" for me to keep my shotguns in the locked portion
of my truck before or after shooting at my Sportsmans Club. My
campus happens to be half way between my home and the Club so
from a convenience perspective the question makes sense. The Major
indicated that the Statute could be interpreted that it was Ok to
store the guns in my locked truck. 3 years later the General Counsel
I am told disagrees.

.02 David

 

[GoOfY-FoOt]

To the OP, you are experiencing an issue that has surfaced quite frequently, as of late.
While Florida law-makers attempted to remedy situations like yours, with their "take-your-gun-to-work" law, it fell short, and was found to cause some conflict with other laws.

So, please look into Florida SB-234 or it's companion, HB-45.
Two bills currently in commitee, that will settle your dilema, among other issues important to the gun community, here in our fine state.

 

[bn12gg]

Goofy-- Thank you. David

 

[Shootin Chef]

The statute you cited covers only "carry" -- which is wearing the firearm on your person or holding it in your hand. It does not address transport in a vehicle, or storage in a vehicle.

Hence the second part, addressing carrying in one's car.

If your rather novel view of "your property" vs. "their property" had any legal validity, then high school students and faculty all over the country would be able to store guns in their cars and the schools wouldn't have anything to say about it, and the Federal and state school zone laws would not apply.

My "novel" view good sir? My view is exactly what keeps authorities from being able to search your trunk or locked glove box. Inside of your vehicle is still considered private property, else anyone could just open your car and muck about at their pleasure.

then high school students and faculty all over the country would be able to store guns in their cars and the schools wouldn't have anything to say about it, and the Federal and state school zone laws would not apply.

SB308 allowed this in Georgia
Q: May I carry at schools – K through 12?
A: No! However, a person with a Georgia Weapons License may carry a firearm while dropping off or picking up a student and also may keep a firearm in a motor vehicle while parked on campus.
Source: http://www.gacarry.org

I'm fairly certain it's legal in South Carolina to.

My point with the previous post was to show that if the OP complied with both sets of rules by not carrying on his person in a car, kept the firearm secured in one of the two ways, and didn't take it out of his property, then by the way the law is written he has done no wrong.
If Florida law hasn't addressed this matter clearly, that's not on the OP's head. (although it seems there is legislation concerning this exact matter now).

IASNAL
Chef

 

[Aguila Blanca]

Aquila B-- Thanks for weighing in. Do you think the Statute is
purposely difficult to interpret as it regards storing a firearm in a
locked vehicle on campus at a public university?

No, I do not think the statute is purposely vague. The statute Shootin' Chef cited is the statute addressing concealed carry. Leaving a firearm in your vehicle is not concealed carry.

I am neither a lawyer nor a Florida resident. I do have a Florida non-resident permit, but inasmuch as I have no plans to be visiting college campuses in Florida I have not researched what is or isn't legal on campus.

I see that Shootin' Chef has responded to my previous post, but he still hasn't addressed the issue. What the laws in Georgia or South Carolina may or may not allow obviously has nothing to do with Florida. As to "They can't search my car without permission," that's a red herring. The 5th Amendment provides that they can't force you to admit to a criminal act, but your silence does not equate to innocence. A firearm in your car could be (not "is," "could be") illegal, and the fact they can't search your car without probable cause does not make it legal. What happens if they DO have probable cause? Probable cause may not be within your control. Say you drive a blue Explorer. If there's a report of an armed robbery nearby and the escape vehicle is a blue Explorer headed toward your campus -- any police officer has probable cause to stop and search your vehicle, because it matches the description of a vehicle involved in a crime. "Sir, what are these guns, and why do you have them on university property?"

Are there other Florida statutes pertaining to firearms that may address your question? My view is that colleges and universities can prohibit firearms on campus unless there's a law that says they cannot do so. That would mean that having a gun in your vehicle may not be against state law, but it would be against university policy and could be grounds for termination irrespective of legality under state law.

And it would appear that's exactly the case, or the proposed bills mentioned above would not have been proposed.

 

[ARick81]

Its perfectly fine to lock it in the vehicle. I live in fl and attend college here, and every day before class i (very discreetly) take my .380 out of my pocket and lock it in the glovebox. It is only against the law to carry it on your person while on campus

 

[bn12gg]

I'm hoping HB 45 and SB 234 will settle the matter. I doubt that a
State university would attempt to establish local policy at odds with
what the legislature enacts this Spring. For example, to obtain an on
campus parking decal you have to waive your right to keep a firearm
in your locked vehicle-- not too likely.

Thanks for the info and analysis.

.02 David

 

[Shootin Chef]

What the laws in Georgia or South Carolina may or may not allow obviously has nothing to do with Florida.

I was merely addressing your statement about students around the country carrying in their vehicles. I could pull up other state statutes if you would like?

A firearm in your car could be (not "is," "could be") illegal, and the fact they can't search your car without probable cause does not make it legal.

Perhaps you skipped over the part in my first post where I addressed this, I shall post it again for your convenience good sir.
"Florida allows, by law, vehicle conceal carry as long as it is "securely encased" (i.e. you have to perform some action before drawing the weapon, such as opening a box or unbuttoning a snap). Vehicle carry without a permit is permitted when concealed even if it is not "securely encased" if the firearm is not "readily accessible" (i.e. in the trunk).
You're not allowed to carry on person in a vehicle (exceptions made that do not apply to this situation)."

Contrary to what you stated, open carry is not restricted to on your person, you are considered carrying if you have a firearm within unobstructed reach, such as sitting beside you on the seat of your car. Conceal carry, in layman terms, requires another action be taken before the weapon can be drawn.

So, now that we have established that you are considered carrying when you have a firearm in your vehicle, and Florida allows you to do so, concealed (as in the statute), and the Fourth Amendment protects your right against illegal search and seizure (even with probable cause they can't force you to open a locked enclosure, that requires a warrant) on your private property, which establishes your vehicle to be private property and not the property of the campus, where would the OP break a law?

 

[GoOfY-FoOt]

EDIT:

I inadvertently offered mis-information in my previous post.

The companion bill to SB-234 is HB-517.

HB-45, while relevant, is designed to prohibit any official from challenging the State's preemption against lesser municipalities, on it's gun laws.

 

[TailGator]

This has been debated in Florida for a while, and the answer is not clear. Since the law refers to university "facilities" there has even been an argument that a parking LOT is OK but a parking GARAGE is not.

As was mentioned earlier, you can bet the rent that a significant number of the tens of thousand of people who park on campus for football games at each of the several universities with major football programs have firearms in their cars and RVs.

To be safe, though, I would be extremely discreet about stowing a firearm. If you decide to bring it to campus in your car, you might want to get it in a lockbox before you get to campus. You don't want to be a test case if an anti-gun zealot sees you stashing it.

There is another part of the Florida statutes that says that firearm laws will be interpreted in favor of the legal possession and use of firearms by qualified individuals. That combined with the unclear law and the reference to facilities of the universities might well make the first test case a win, but it might be an expensive win.

 

[blume357]

Here's what really happened...

you asked a lawyer and the lawyer knows for a fact that if he or she says it's okay for you to have a gun in your car and then you go postal and kill a bunch of folks on campus then he or she is liable for this....

I have yet to hear ever of a lawyer saying it's okay to carry or transport a gun any where they are responsible for.

 

[bn12gg]

I appreciate the responses to my OP. I'm just trying to flesh out
a rule to follow. I'd like to comfortably transit my faculty parking
lot with my shotguns before or after shooting a few clays. I'd
never leave my truck with one of my shotguns.

I've copied the thread. I've given the copy to a friend who is
an administrator -- he has regular contact with our Unversity
attorney's office. After showing it to him, he asked if it was
"ok" to show it to the attorney. I said fine! -- should get
interesting. I've assured my friend that I have no firearms
buried in my truck.

For those interested, I'll keep the thread posted.

.02 David

ps-- By the way, I lectured 150+ students today X2 classes-- I'm
not just gooofing off here on the State dole!