Company working on Ballistic stamping of shell casings and taggants for explosives

Contender

New member
Gun Add-On Sets Sights on Killers By Louise Knapp
Story location: http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,1282,55947,00.html

02:00 AM Oct. 25, 2002 PT

A device that can be incorporated into any type of firearm aims to make it harder for criminals to get away with murder.

Every time a weapon fitted with the device is fired, it stamps an indelible imprint of the firearm's serial number onto the bullet's shell casing.

This means that shell casings retrieved at the scene of a crime will become an even more valuable forensics tool, potentially enabling law enforcement professionals to ascertain the gun's make instantly and quickly track down the weapon's last registered owner.

Stamping bullets, however, may not provide an instant solution to matching crimes -- like the Washington-area sniper shootings -- with culprits, said Todd Lizotte, vice president of research and development at NanoVia, where the new device is being developed.

"There are a lot of very educated criminals out there," Lizotte said. "Cartridges can be collected and planted -- left at the scene of the crime on purpose to excite some response."

John Mogle, general manager at Christensen Arms, a custom gun manufacturer, agrees.

"There is always going to be one or two of these lunatics out there, and these criminals are probably using stolen guns anyway, so the weapon will not be registered to them," Mogle said.

The system works by making use of the pressure and heat that build up when a weapon is fired, causing the cartridge to expand into the wall of the gun barrel.

"What we did was put a plug in the breech of the gun that has very small raised letters on it, so that when the expansion occurs the cartridge is self-embossed with these characters," Lizotte said.

At about one-tenth the diameter of a human hair, the etching is so small that forensic scientists need microscopes to identify the characters.

Lizotte said the system offers several advantages over current methods.

Currently, ballistics experts can only match casings to their guns if the weapon has also been recovered. When you have a shell casing with the gun's serial number stamped onto it, you no longer need the gun. Lizotte also said NanoVia's system is more reliable than current methods of matching casings to guns.

"It offers a more precise piece of evidence than a scratch or a ding in a bullet logged in a digital file," Lizotte said.

The system has met with some skepticism in the gun world.

"The law-abiding citizen will leave this alone, but the people who are not law-abiding will know it's there and will simply rub it smooth," said David Epstein, director of scientific services at the National Forensic Science Technology Center. "It just takes a file, and it's easy to do."

Lizotte, however, said that's not possible.

"You don't have direct access to it with a file. In order to be able to get to it and file it off, you'd have to ruin the gun," Lizotte said.

Mogle of Christensen Arms voiced some concerns over cost.

"It's going to be an added expense," he said. "We're a custom gun maker, so it's not such a big deal to us, but for the mass-production manufacturers, expense is very important."

Lizotte said that when manufactured in bulk, the system would add $4 to $5 to every firearm.

Lannie Emanuel, secretary of the Association of Firearm and Tool Mark Examiners, was more enthusiastic about the system.

"It's one step beyond what we are doing now," Emanuel said. "If you had the identification number, you wouldn't need to have the gun to compare what you had on the bullet.


Also check out Nanovia's site:



http://www.nanovia.com/News_files/Bullets.htm


http://www.nanovia.com/News_files/Taggants.htm
 

Art Eatman

Staff in Memoriam
"This means that shell casings retrieved at the scene of a crime will become an even more valuable forensics tool..."

Yeah, right. All those revolver cartridge cases left lying around. Or cases from a bolt-action rifle. Or cases from a double-barrel shotgun.

Maybeso we can expect restrictions on shell-catchers? Or on Dremel tools? Or on chamber reamers? Lathes? Barrel blanks?

:barf:

Art
 

Redlg155

New member
I think I read this same thread somewhere?

Anyway... I just hope they aren't getting Federal money to do this. What idiots.

Good Shooting
Red
 

Southla1

Member In Memoriam
of course after they do that no criminal will ever use a weapon that was made or pruchased before they started ballistic stamping, and of course every 1# can of powder, or the powder in each box of ammo, will have a different taggant............yea right and I got a bridge to sell you.
 

Bud Helms

Senior Member
"... it stamps an indelible imprint of the firearm's serial number onto the bullet's shell casing."

"Stamping bullets, however, may not provide an instant solution to matching crimes ..."

Well, which is it?
 

Waitone

New member
Well let's not stop there.

Let's create an unbroken chain of custody. Tattoo the shooters SSN on his or her forearm (left inside is preferred). Since we had already placed barrels and slides under strict bATF control, we can now custom manufacture parts complete with SSN of the purchaser. That way LE can pick up casing, check DMV to cross reference the perps address, go pick them up. Case closed, now on to trial.

How convenient.

How simplistic.

Bad things happen because of bad people not because of evil machinery.
 

Old Fuff

New member
Ah, another wonderful idea....

What if someone takes a punch and "gently" taps the face of this thing? Or perhaps a few seconds with a hand grinder? Does it also tell the make and model, because serial numbers are often duplicated by different manyfacturers? How about the 200 million guns that are floating around now?

But it's still a great idea - for the company's owners or stockholders. Think of the money they will make.
 

SIGarmed

New member
Totally useless! This is modern snake oil. Some company thinks they can make a buck off of some liberal politicians and a bunch of sheeple. Is it this bad in this country? Are people that stupid? Its getting worse and worse all the time. I don't care about tagants but the only way they can track anything is registration and that is plain wrong and illegal.

And to think that something that can easily make an impression on a peice of brass "is to hard to get to" with a file. :rolleyes:
Yes all gun owners are stupid too.
 

raz-0

New member
"You don't have direct access to it with a file. In order to be able to get to it and file it off, you'd have to ruin the gun," Lizotte said.

Ok, maybe I'm forgetting something, but just which part of the gun exactly touches the brass that I can't reach with some sort of abrasive?

I can't think of one off the top of my head.
 

DaleA

New member
But most people WON'T remove the serial number maker.

Burglars didn't start wearing gloves after finger printing was discovered did they?

Oh wait, THEY DID.

Never mind.
 

Waitone

New member
Grandiose schemes don't just spring out of nowhere. They generally have a governmental patron somewhere associated with the company (board member, consultant, stockholder, bondholder, future consideration) when the idea begins being batted around in the public forum.

One major example comes to mind. There is an outfit in Florida that just obtained FDA approval for the sale of a microchip which is implantable into human beings. Shades of 1984 and 666 etc. The technology existed for years but really never went anywhere. The company fell on hard times one reason being it was limited in use to animals other than humans. Well, guess who shows up as a patron???? Come on, guess! The answer is Minneta of the US Deptartment of Transportation (same guy who so effectively handled airport security, etc.) Seems Mr. Minetta is an enthusiastic supporter of the concept and has spoken in public fora positively of its potential. Now also guess what? All of a sudden the company gets FDA approval in an expedited manner. So now the company has regulatory approval, a government patron, a government market (talk is the military is a beta site), and legislative interest (no legislative support, therfore no military usage). So now the company has clear running with no competition in sight.

Shift to ballistic fingerprinting. Two companies play, one (Forensic Technology of Canada) is the favorite of bATF, FIB, and state organizations as well as key members of congress. I have been snooping around to see who of the aforementioned organizations have an interest in the good fortunes of Forensic Technology. No results yet but I'd be willing to bet the finest steak dinner at a Waffle House someone is at least cheerleading.

Sit back and wait. I believe we'll see something crawl out of the woodwork regarding even this latest scheme to track firearms.
 

dZ

New member
Earth to Todd Lizotte
Earth to Todd Lizotte

3bucc1.jpg
 

P. Mall

New member
I use a lot of reloaded ammo. What happens when stamped reloaded rounds from someone else's weapon are used in a crime and fired from a non ballistic registering firearm?
 
dZ beat me to it, but I was going to suggest a plastic milk jug that was taped onto the receiver. So much for all their research. Expect the antis to scream for banning shell catchers!
 

Jim V

New member
No, no, you don't understand at all, after this system is in place it will be illegal not to leave a fired cartridge case at a crime scene.
 

DaleA

New member
Jim V:
No, no, you don't understand at all, after this system is in place it will be illegal not to leave a fired cartridge case at a crime scene.
Me, slapping my forehead:
"DOH! Of course! NOW it will work!"
Gads, why can't we see the obvious!
Great post Jim V.
 
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