Commander in Chief

[73 Jock]

from the U.S. Constitution, Article 2, Section 2 (Presidential Powers):

"The President shall be Commander in Chief of the Army and Navy of the United States"

Commander in Chief is the FIRST presidential power listed. The Commander in Chief is the highest ranking officer in the military.

Imagine for a moment if CIC were an office separate from the Presidency. Military service would be an obvious mandatory requirement for the position. With that in mind, is it responsible to be considering any candidate for that office who has NEVER served in the military?

 

[kamerer]

I have always viewed military service as a desirable pre-requisite to higher federal elected office - such as Representative, Senator or President. While it may not be a requirement, it is something the critical-thinking voter should contemplate. I place a heavy emphasis on it when evaluating candidates.

 

[Hkmp5sd]

I kinda like the method employed in Robert Heinlein's Starship Troopers. Only honorably discharged veterans can hold political office and vote.

 

[sasquatch]

.....is it responsible to be considering any candidate for that office who has NEVER served in the military?

These men served as CIC with no military experience: Bill Clinton, Franklin D. Roosevelt, Herbert Hoover, Calvin Coolidge, Warren G. Harding, Woodrow Wilson, William Howard Taft, Grover Cleveland, Martin Van Buren, John Quincy Adams and John Adams.

 

[73 Jock]

Yes they did. And Dubya was in the Air Guard, which was really an "honorable" (military definition) means of escaping Vietnam for the privileged.

But are these people responsible choices for military leadership?

 

[sasquatch]

the Air Guard, which was really an "honorable" (military definition) means of escaping Vietnam for the privileged.

I take exception to that "definition". I have some very good friends who served in the Guard during the Vietnam era, and weren't escaping anything.

 

[73 Jock]

In short, obeying orders and performing one's duty is "honorable" service. I can't comment on your friends, but the Guard was undisputably a Vietnam refuge for the privileged (particularly politician's kids).

To stay topical; do you think the civilians above were prepared for military leadership?

 

[sasquatch]

the Guard was undisputably a Vietnam refuge for the privileged (particularly politician's kids).

Baloney. Air Guard units flew thousand of sorties and combat hours in Southeast Asia during the Vietnam war. They served honorably and bravely. If you can't say something good about them, don't say anything at all.

 

[SecDef]

Imagine for a moment if CIC were an office separate from the Presidency. Military service would be an obvious mandatory requirement for the position. With that in mind, is it responsible to be considering any candidate for that office who has NEVER served in the military?

Secretary of the Defense is pretty close and there is no obvious mandatory requirement of military service. Why would there be one so obviously on CIC?

I dunno, this is like saying that since the president is head of the executive branch there needs to be a requirement that needs to have been a cop.

 

[SecDef]

Baloney. Air Guard units flew thousand of sorties and combat hours in Southeast Asia during the Vietnam war. They served honorably and bravely. If you can't say something good about them, don't say anything at all.

I don't think it was anything against the Guard, but GWB's involvement in particular.

 

[73 Jock]

I have 14 years service, both active and Guard. I will say what I view as accurate, good or bad.

Many Guard units went, but the likelyhood was much lower. I believe all served honorably, but many used political connections; Bush/Quayle.

Here is a distinguished opinion:

from My American Journey, by General Colin Powell:

"The policies — determining who would be drafted and who would be deferred, who would serve and who would escape, who would die and who would live — were an antidemocratic disgrace...I am angry that so many of the sons of the powerful and well placed...managed to wangle slots in reserve and National Guard units. Of the many tragedies of Vietnam, this raw class discrimination strikes me as the most damaging to the ideal that all Americans are created equal and owe equal allegiance to their country."

 

[SecDef]

I have 14 years service, both active and Guard. I will say what I view as accurate, good or bad.

Which isn't to say that military service isn't a DESIRABLE quality.

 

[73 Jock]

Secretary of the Defense is pretty close and there is no obvious mandatory requirement of military service. Why would there be one so obviously on CIC?

You are apparently fond of that office as it is your screen name. So when we elect someone CIC or appoint a SecDef, should they have military experience to be responsible for committing our troops to battle?

 

[nemoaz]

These men served as CIC with no military experience: Bill Clinton, Franklin D. Roosevelt, Herbert Hoover, Calvin Coolidge, Warren G. Harding, Woodrow Wilson, William Howard Taft, Grover Cleveland, Martin Van Buren, John Quincy Adams and John Adams.

I don't think that helps the argument. Poor CIC/Prez's almost to a man.

 

[SecDef]

You are apparently fond of that office as it is your screen name. So when we elect someone CIC or appoint a SecDef, should they have military experience to be responsible for committing our troops to battle?

Not a mandatory requirement, just a desirable one.

As for responsibility for committing troops, that lies in the CIC and congress, and I certainly don't want all members of congress to have a military background (I'm a firm believer that large groups should have diverse background)

If service were mandatory, what kind of service?
Survived boot camp?
Front line experience?
4 years cooking hash in Diego Garcia?
General (or other leadership position)?
Computer hacker in the new war front?

What experience better makes a person able to make a decision whether or not to put others in harms way? What entails a better decision? (i.e. Is it better to make a decision to try other routes of resolution before engaging force or better to act quickly and stomp out a problem, maybe just by showing up in uniforms, before a situation escalates?)

While there is a strong argument that a large percentage of those that enlist are showing (quite actively) a love for the country and a willingness to take responsibility upon their shoulders, there is an equally strong argument that there are other ways to do that not military better utilizing an individuals unique strengths.

 

[SecDef]

Followup question for clarification:

Is there a difference between GWB and Dick Cheney in the position of CIC/SecDef? One served in the military, another didn't. They currently seem to be in complete agreement regarding CIC decisions.

 

[JaserST4]

And Dubya was in the Air Guard, which was really an "honorable" (military definition) means of escaping Vietnam for the privileged.

I have 14 years service, both active and Guard. I will say what I view as accurate, good or bad.

I don't think your freedom or ability to make idiotic statements was being challenged. No need to get huffy. Apparently accuracy isn't your goal but thanks for your service anyway. I had 4 years in but I don't consider it a base for knowledge of the branch's history.

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Air_National_Guard_and_the_Vietnam_War
The Air Guard units were quickly and effectively integrated into Air Force combat operations in Southeast Asia (SEA). Prior to their return home in April 1969, they flew 24,124 sortie and 38,614 combat hours. Those numbers rose to approximately 30,000 sorties and 50,000 combat hours if the predominantly Air Guard 355th was included.

 

[skydiver3346]

73 Jock comment is offensive!

You have offended a large number of Air Guard folks and veterans who totally disagree with your comments on this unit. You need to apologize for this silly comment and support all of your country's branches of military service.

 

[cohoskip]

Well, the CIC has a staff of seasoned veterans (Generals, etc.) to advise him in matters of defense, war, etc. (at least he is supposed to have).

I can't imagine what is gonna happen if one of the Dems wins the presidency.

Talk about military service...

 

[Al Norris]

...is it responsible to be considering any candidate for that office who has NEVER served in the military?

For the sake of the argument, I would want the CIC to be a combat veteran. Not some REMF who had never engaged the enemy. That would include officers with the enlisted.

However, it was the founders belief that all military units were to be held strictly accountable and subordinate to civil authority. This can be seen within Art I, section 8, clauses 10 thru 16. The State Constitutions were even more explicit about this.

To sum it up, I would give whatever military service a prospective candidate for the Office of the President it's proper recognition. However, it wouldn't be the controlling factor in my choice.

ETA: Skydiver? Take a chill pill. It was an opinion. 73 Jock is as entitled to it, as are you entitled to yours. You do not however, have the option to "demand" an apology from him. The only affront was in your own mind.