Colt SAA durability experiences?

[jakester]

I am interested in getting into Cowboy Action shooting and had my mind made up on a Ruger Vacquero until I started handling some of the Colt 1873 SAA replicas. Do they feel nice in the hand! Also like the action: four clicks and second point for reloading.

My local gun dealer shoots CAS and recommends going Ruger. He says that the Colt SAA is too fragile in design to handle heavy shooting, even with light loads. Anyone have an opinion on this? Are they really that delicate? If so, how was the West Won???

He shoots a 38 special Ruger Vacquero because the ammo costs less (remember this is a gun dealer!) and less kick. Sounds like an IPSC shooter turned CAS. I was actually looking at the old faithful 45 Colt, or possibly 44-40 or 38-40.

Would appreciate insight into durability and brands to consider. Have looked at and/or researched Traditions, AWA, USFA, EMF, Cimarron, and Ubertis. Feedback from owners?

 

[Jim March]

The lower-end Italian clones ($400 range, give or take a bit) aren't that bad, as long as you keep peak pressures down. In big-bore, they can shoot lots of "Cowboy loads" and moderate amounts of modern .45LC "defense loads" such as the Winchester Silvertip in .44Spl or .45LC (more or less duplicating decent .45ACP defense fodder). They must NOT ever try and eat .45LC+P "Ruger Only" monsters, ever, not even in a pinch.

Most people give them a modest "fluff and buff" to polish the handling.

There are also companies using Italian or Colt replica parts but doing hand-tuning in the US. Prices are up over $600, sometimes just under $1,000. Nice, but strength issues are no different.

My take is this:

If you start with a Ruger, you can alter it for better handling and still end up around $700ish. Example:

.45LC Vaquero, used, $350 if you look around - you want a 4.6" barrel and big-bore for fast handling (you could also go .44Mag if you want). The .357s weigh more, due to barrel wall and cylinder wall thickness.

Belt Mountain base pin, $35.

Power Custom freewheel pawl, $35.

Power Custom Colt SAA sized grip frame for New Model Rugers, $200.

Colt SAA grips, wood so you can do final fitting yourself, $60?

Wolff spring kit, $20 tops.

We're at (fires up Win98 calculator ) $700. Measure the cylinder constrictions, if they're undersize in .45LC (some are) figure $40 tops to have 'em tweaked. Helps accuracy.

You now have a better gun than anything based on the SAA design. Period. With near-identical handling.

Next, you can score a used .45ACP cylinder from somebody's convertable Blackhawk for an average of $60 - $75. Odds are around 50/50 it'll drop right in, otherwise any local gunsmith can tweak the fit. Now you can shoot cheapo .45ACPs available at a price not much different from .38Spl prices. You can also load monster .45LC+P stuff that'll drop a black bear dead in it's tracks, and give a Griz pause with a well-placed shot . Or hunt deer. And you can carry it six-up due to the safety, better than anything the Italians have thunk up. You can CCW the dang thing using .45ACP magazines as speedloaders .

This is just my opinion, of course, based on my research for when I build up a Ruger SA of my own (too broke right now ). For more info and links to all these user-installable bits, tuning guides, etc see also:

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=80872

 

[Lone Star]

Mike Venturino at "Shooting Times" is a big fan of vintage guns, and he told me that genuine Colt SAA's hold up pretty well, certainly better than one hears that they do. He meant for general sidearm use; heavy competition naturally causes more wear. Mike has several excellent books on Old West guns, by the way, and he's shot all that he evaluates.
Lone Star

 

[mec]

Often the springs in the italian SA's are hard and brittle and break early and often. I know this is true from breaking a load of trigger bolt springs in c&b guns. Also, Hamilton Bowen says so and he is the best. The Guild Smiths have figured out how to make the SA types a lot less troublesome. they use lighter and better springs. there is even a round wire spring available through Dillon and brownelles to replace the trigger bolt job. Bowen often replaces the hand spring with a coil wire-plunger affair.

All in all though, if you are going to do a lot of shooting, the Ruger's are the way to go.

 

[Johnny Guest]

No contribution, just a compliment to Mr. March - - -

- - -On a very comprehensive and informative response. It answered a couple of questions I've had lurking around my brain for a while. (I am trying hard NOT to get back into single action shooting--Too many other interests, too little dinero.)

Your post closely paralleled my own thoughts on part of the subject, and addressed some issues of which I am quite ignorant.

Anyhow, great reply, Jim.

Interesting spring info from mec, as well.

Best,
Johnny

 

[Jim March]

<blush> Thanks, Johnny.

I've heard of the tweaks to the SAA design that Mec speaks of. The guys doing "already tuned up" SAA clones are using some or all of 'em.

They're fine up to about 20,000psi, though you should do most practice and plinking with less (cowboy grade). Cor-Bon's .45LC defense load is a 200grain JHP at 1,100fps (4" tube) which is about as hot as I'd go in on any SAA platform, 'specially a $350 Italian. The Winchester Silvertip ain't quite that hot, 225grain at 950fps. Either is damned good for two-legged problems, bearly adequate for black bear in a dire emergency if you have nothing else. Hot .357 hardcast would be better for the woods but those would be more horsepower than I'd want to run in a lower-end Italian SAA .357.

On the Rugers, there's a lot of options, and a lot of ways to save money or tweak it cheap. Example: if you want a Bisley Vaquero at some point to handle major recoil, but have access to a blue Vaquero, do some horse-trading. People with alloy-grip-frame Blackhawks sometimes seek out factory blue steel grip frames of the same shape, such as are found on a blue/casehardened Vaquero. So you've got a bit of valuable trade goods that can be horse-swapped into the type you want . Or trade for an alloy Blackhawk frame, that's easy )) and use that to cut your gun's carry weight. That's one way Gary Reeder ends up with a 28oz .45LC 4" barrel critter he calls the "Backpacker" . He strips the blue off the alloy grip frame, re-shapes it a bit, matches it to stainless guns, comes out lookin' pretty good. See also www.reedercustomguns.com - note how he shaves away at the actual frame to save weight. You can get a Ruger slimmed down to where it'll pack JUST like an SAA, if that's your thing.