Colt Detective special question

[HighValleyRanch]

I was over at a friends this morning and he showed me his pristine Colt Detective special. What amazed me was how small it was with six rounds in the cylinder.
Seemed smaller than the new K6.

Anyways, I'm going to make him a IWB holster for it in the future. He wants a hammer strap because he is afraid that the hammer will snag on something and fire.
But the Detective special has a hammer block I thought and the trigger needs to be pulled to fire. So the question is whether the Colt can fire from just the hammer snagging on something?

 

[Bill DeShivs]

No- it can't.

 

[jar]

No it can't but I still prefer a retention strap and across the hammer is great on them what have an exposed hammer.

My Detective Special in various holsters:

 

[Aguila Blanca]

I'm curoius about all these people who say the Detective Special can't fire without pulling the trigger. I have a third generation DS (shrouded ejector rod), and mine has a traditional firing pin on the hammer -- no transfer bar.

 

[1MoreFord]

I'm curoius about all these people who say the Detective Special can't fire without pulling the trigger. I have a third generation DS (shrouded ejector rod), and mine has a traditional firing pin on the hammer -- no transfer bar.

I'm not a Colt revolver expert but if I understand correctly Colts either had a hammer block system similar to Smith or a transfer bar system with the older one's having the hammer block. IOW they won't fire w/o pulling the trigger. Don't worry too much about a hammer strap except for retention.

 

[DPris]

There's never been a transfer bar on a genuine Detective Special.
It has an internal hammer block incorporated into its action decades ago.
It CAN'T fire from the hammer "snagging" on anything.
Denis

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

I'm curoius about all these people who say the Detective Special can't fire without pulling the trigger. I have a third generation DS (shrouded ejector rod), and mine has a traditional firing pin on the hammer -- no transfer bar.

Howdy

Forget about where the firing pin is. You are thinking of Rugers with the firing pin mounted in the frame and a transfer bar that rises up to transfer the blow of the hammer to the firing pin.

In 1905 Colt patented the Positive Lock mechanism that made sure the firing pin would not strike a primer unless the hammer was brought back all the way.

By the way, that is what the Positive in Colt Police Positive meant.

In the first photo, the arrow is pointing to the internal hammer block of a Colt Detective Special. If you look closely you will see the hammer block is all the way up, and it is preventing the hammer from moving all the way forward. The firing pin does not protrude through the frame with the hammer block in position. In this condition, a blow to the hammer will not cause the gun to fire.

In this photo, the hammer is fully cocked, and the hammer block has withdrawn from the hammer. You cannot see it in this photo, but a lever attached to the trigger has withdrawn the hammer block. If the trigger is pulled now, the hammer block will remain withdrawn and the hammer can fall all the way, allowing the firing pin to protrude through the frame and fire a round.

If the hammer were to snag on something and be drawn partially back and then released, the hammer block will pop back up and prevent the hammer from falling all the way.

P.S. You don't have to take the gun apart to see the hammer block in action.

FIRST MAKE DOUBLE SURE THE GUN IS UNLOADED.

Cock the hammer slowly and peek down inside where the hammer is. You will see the hammer block withdrawing. Then, holding onto the hammer to prevent it from falling, pull the trigger just enough to allow the hammer to disengage from the trigger. Then let go of the trigger but keep your thumb on the hammer to prevent it from falling. Slowly let the hammer down and you will see the hammer block rising again. Try it again, this time keeping the trigger pulled all the way back and lower the hammer slowly. The hammer block will remain retracted, allowing the hammer to go all the way down.

 

[bamaranger]

+1

The Colt has a what could be termed a "hammer block"( actually I think Colt calls it "safety block") which PREVENTS the hammer (and exposed, attached firing pin) from making a complete or proper stroke to allow impacting the primer of a cartridge UNLESS the trigger is fully rearward in DA or SA. A "transfer bar" is a completely different kettle of fish, TRANSFERING the blow of the hammer, to frame mounted firing pin. Both mechanisms function in an entirely different manner, to accomplish the same purpose, preventing a round from discharging unless the trigger is fully rearward.

The train of thought, I believe, for a lot of folks runs back to the old SA Colt (and early Ruger SA ) revolvers with firing pins on the hammer. The SAFE way to carry an old six-shooter was with an empty chamber under the hammer. Ruger created a lot of press attempting to educate folks about proper carry of an old style SA revolver. Unfortunately, it seems a lot of folks see the hammer mounted firing pin on certain DA revlovers (like the Dick Special) and believe the same applies.

It doesn't.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

The train of thought, I believe, for a lot of folks runs back to the old SA Colt (and early Ruger SA ) revolvers with firing pins on the hammer.

The old Three Screw Ruger single action revolvers had the firing pin mounted in the frame, not on the hammer.

However, just like the Colt Single Action Army, they could discharge if a heavy enough blow was delivered to the hammer spur and a live round was under the hammer. Both the Colt and Ruger have (had) a so called 'safety cock' notch on the hammer, which withdrew the hammer enough to keep the firing pin away from a primer. However the tip of the trigger (sear) on these models is (was) very thin, and could break off if a heavy blow was struck to the hammer. That is why it was only safe to carry either of these models with an empty chamber under the hammer.

 

[HighValleyRanch]

Great! Thanks for all the explanations. I will pass the information onto him so he can decide on the retention strap. I knew the experts here would be know the answer!

 

[bamaranger]

I stand corrected

I shoulda known that.........my only early Ruger SA , a Bearcat, has the frame mounted pin as Driftwood stated. Ooops.

Thanks Driftwood

 

[dgludwig]

In this condition, a blow to the hammer will not cause the gun to fire.

I'm not sure how their hammer/firing pin "safety" compares, but it was Iver Johnson who challenged doubters in their advertisements of the day to "Hammer the Hammer" of their "Safety Hammer" model revolvers, manufactured from 1895 to 1950.

 

[HighValleyRanch]

I was just over at his house with the new hoslter I made for his glock and I showed him on his Colt DS that the hammer firing pin didn't expose itselft unless the trigger was held back.
By looking from the side you could verify all this. BUt....he still wants a thumbbreak type holster for it.
This piece is in pristine condition! I held it next to my service six snub and it's way smaller. I held it next to my LCR and it's still smaller with 6 rounds in the chamber. The Colt DS cylinder width is 1/8" thinner than my service six, and 1/8" wider than the five shot LCR cylinder.

I can see why this was a favorite backup gun in the days.

 

[DPris]

When I carried mine, it was in a thumbbreak just for retention with quick access.
I don't like opentops & the older snapstrap isn't as quick & natural on a draw.
Denis

 

[HighValleyRanch]

That's exactly what I am making today, a thumb break IWB holster with forward cant.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

I can see why this was a favorite backup gun in the days.

Not just backup. The "Dick Special" was popular as a primary duty weapon with plainclothes and undercover officers because it held six rounds, compared to five in the small Smith & Wesson revolvers.

 

[rep1954]

The Colt Detective Spl. Was derived from the Colt Police Positive Spl. which was derived from the Colt Police Positive which was the the first safety revolver offered to the market as far as I know. Early snub nose Police Positives were known as Bankers Spl’s. If I have misspoken please feel free to correct me. My son has a Police Positive Spl. that has been shortened to 1 1/2” and has no front sight and has the smaller grip frame and is used as a coat pocket carry.

 

[Dfariswheel]

I'm late as usual.....

The older Colt revolvers have TWO safety systems to prevent any chance of the gun firing unless the trigger is pulled.

The first safety is the hammer rebound safety.
When the gun is fired and the trigger released the hammer is forced backward (rebounded) away from a cartridge, and it's locked to the rear.

Since the hammer rebound safety "could" fail if the hammer is struck hard enough, around 1900 Colt added a "Positive Safety".
This is the steel bar in front of the hammer.
When the trigger is pulled the steel bar slides DOWN out of the way of the hammer and allows the hammer to move forward and fire the cartridge.
When the trigger is released, the steel bar raises UP in front of the hammer and blocks it from moving forward until the trigger is pulled again.

S&W didn't design a similar hammer blocking safety until WWII, after a Navy S&W revolver was dropped on a steel deck and the gun fired, killing a sailor.

Due to the double safety system used in the older Colt's no amount of dropping or striking the hammer can cause it to fire.

A safety strap on a holster is good insurance against loss of the gun but not totally necessary in a properly designed holster.
Here's a cross draw design I did which retains the gun almost as well as a safety strap and an "FBI" style holster with a thumb break.

This cross draw holster is a "reversed seam" with the seam in front to form a sight track. The tight molding retains the gun and the non-stitched back under the trigger guard allows the gun to slide out quickly when pulled.

Just for fun I made this copy of the old John Bianchi Model 5B "FBI" style.
The open trigger is no longer considered to be a valid feature so if I made one for actual use, it would cover the trigger.

 

[Dfariswheel]

The progression of the small frame Colt revolvers was....

The New Pocket, made from 1895 to 1905. This had only the rebounding hammer, and was made in short cartridges like the .32 Short and .32 Colt New Police. AKA .32 S&W
This was the model Teddy Roosevelt bought for the NYPD.

New Police. Similar to the New Pocket except with larger square butt.
Made from 1896 to 1907.

The Pocket Positive. Similar to the New Pocket except with the Colt Positive Safety in addition to the rebounding hammer.
Made from 1905 to 1927.

Police Positive. Made from 1907 to 1927.
Made in .32 and .38 New Police AKA .32 and .38 S&W.

Police Positive Second Issue. Same as the Police Positive except heavier frame. Made from 1928 to 1947.
Also used for the Banker's Special .22 and .38 New Police (.38 S&W) .

Police Positive Special. 1907 to 1927. First of the new style actions and frames that would be used for all later small frame Colt's like the Detective Special, Diamondback, Cobra, etc.
Made in 32-20, .32 New Police (.32 S&W) and the first small Colt made in .38 Special.

Police Positive Special Second Issue. 1928 to 1946. Same as the First Issue except with a larger grip and wider space between the trigger guard and front of the grip.

There were several later models of the Police Positive Special made up to 1995.

For more details see Colt Fever.....

http://www.coltfever.com/

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

S&W didn't design a similar hammer blocking safety until WWII, after a Navy S&W revolver was dropped on a steel deck and the gun fired, killing a sailor.

Not quite correct. Smith and Wesson incorporated hammer blocks into their revolvers long before WWII. There were two different types. This first type was first installed in 1915. A leaf spring hammer block was staked into a slot in the side plate. The normal position of the hammer block was proud of the side plate, with a tab on the hammer block positioned between the hammer and the frame, preventing the hammer from moving all the way forward. When the hammer was cocked the hand pushed a spring loaded pin which forced the hammer block to withdraw into the slot in the side plate, allowing the hammer to fall all the way. Notice these revolvers also featured a rebounding hammer. That went back to the 1905 model. The bump on top of the rebound slide has wedged the hammer back, withdrawing the firing pin into the frame.

In the normal position, the hammer block is really a secondary safety. It does not physically block the hammer unless a strong enough blow has been struck to the hammer to shear of the bottom of the hammer, or crush the rebound slide.

The second type used fewer parts. A ramp on the hand contacted a tab on the hammer block, causing it to withdraw into the slot, allowing the hammer to fall all the way. With the hammer forward and the trigger released, the hammer block's spring force pushed it out of the side plate, positioning it between the hammer and the frame, just like with the earlier design. This type was first installed in 1926. Notice this design also employs a rebounding hammer, with the bump on top of the rebound slide wedging the hammer back.

The third type was indeed developed during WWII, in 1944 to be exact. A sailor was killed when one of the second type hammer blocks failed in a Victory Model, allowing the revolver to discharge when the hammer spur struck the deck of a warship. Subsequent investigation found that the presence of a heavy layer of cosmolene had prevented the hammer block from springing forward into the 'safe' position.

The government was ready to pull orders for S&W revolvers unless a quick solution was found. The engineers were called into the factory and developed a new hammer block design in the space of a week. They decided to go with a more positive type of hammer block, rather than relying on the spring force of a leaf type hammer block.

A new hammer block was stamped from thin steel.

The hammer block rode in a groove milled into the side plate

A pin was added to the rebound slide to pull the hammer block down and back in its slot in the side plate when the hammer was cocked. This allowed the hammer to fall all the way. This photo shows the hammer block in the 'safe' position it would be in when resting in its slot in the side plate. Notice the bent portion of the hammer block is between the hammer and the frame, but the bump on the rebound slide has actually withdrawn the hammer back slightly farther. Again, the hammer block would only come into play if the bottom of the hammer broke, or the bump on the rebound slide got mashed. This hammer block still relies on a spring to make the gun safe, the rebound slide has to push the hammer block back into position while resetting the trigger at the same time.

This style of hammer block is still inside every Smith and Wesson revolver today.