My Detective Special .38 tends to shoot high and to the left at 15 feet. The disparity increases with more distance from the target. I have heard others tell that their DS guns shoot high and to the left so I don't think this is uncommon. The question is what should I do about it? The sights are fixed so there is no adjustment possible. What have others done about similar problems?
Colt Detective Special Accuracy Problem
- Thread starter TenRing
- Start date
Well, my question is: does IT shoot high and left or do YOU shoot high and left with this gun? Sometimes it's not the gun that produces a consistent off-target result, it's the shooter. I know: I've had similar experiences with several of my revolvers, shooting double action.
Whether a gun will shoot true to POA sometimes depends on something so mundane as finger placement on the trigger, especially when shooting double action. Placing not enough of your finger on the trigger is a recipe for pulling the gun in the direction of your dominant hand. It's simply a question of leverage. Not enough finger on the trigger will cause you to bend your wrist outward as you pull on the trigger, pushing the shot away from the axis of the gun and your forearm. Too much finger on the trigger may result in your pushing the gun away from your dominant hand. If you're right handed, that may give you that "high left" pattern.
I'm right handed. I went crazy for a while because all of my revolvers seemed to be shooting to the left of my point of aim. At first I thought that I'd somehow bent the front sights on all of my guns. Then, I decided it was my vision, that somehow, I wasn't seeing the front sights well. For a while, I compensated by pushing the rear sights on my adjustable sight revolvers way over to the right. That helped, but the pattern was still noticeably left of center.
Then, one day, almost by accident, I tried placing my finger less deeply in the trigger. Bingo! Suddenly, I was shooting right at POA (well, not immediately, because all of my rear sights were shifted right, so my first groups were right of center. That ended when I re-centered my rear sights).
Ideally, when you shoot da the trigger ought to rest right on or just a hair below the crease formed by the first joint of your trigger finger. See where yours rests. Practice dry firing in front of a mirror. Does the gun pull off or push away from you when you pull the trigger? If adjusting your trigger finger placement doesn't solve the problem I'd try shooting the gun from a bench rest. If that continues to show high left patterns then, probably, it's the gun.
Whether a gun will shoot true to POA sometimes depends on something so mundane as finger placement on the trigger, especially when shooting double action. Placing not enough of your finger on the trigger is a recipe for pulling the gun in the direction of your dominant hand. It's simply a question of leverage. Not enough finger on the trigger will cause you to bend your wrist outward as you pull on the trigger, pushing the shot away from the axis of the gun and your forearm. Too much finger on the trigger may result in your pushing the gun away from your dominant hand. If you're right handed, that may give you that "high left" pattern.
I'm right handed. I went crazy for a while because all of my revolvers seemed to be shooting to the left of my point of aim. At first I thought that I'd somehow bent the front sights on all of my guns. Then, I decided it was my vision, that somehow, I wasn't seeing the front sights well. For a while, I compensated by pushing the rear sights on my adjustable sight revolvers way over to the right. That helped, but the pattern was still noticeably left of center.
Then, one day, almost by accident, I tried placing my finger less deeply in the trigger. Bingo! Suddenly, I was shooting right at POA (well, not immediately, because all of my rear sights were shifted right, so my first groups were right of center. That ended when I re-centered my rear sights).
Ideally, when you shoot da the trigger ought to rest right on or just a hair below the crease formed by the first joint of your trigger finger. See where yours rests. Practice dry firing in front of a mirror. Does the gun pull off or push away from you when you pull the trigger? If adjusting your trigger finger placement doesn't solve the problem I'd try shooting the gun from a bench rest. If that continues to show high left patterns then, probably, it's the gun.
Stevie, thanks for your input. I am right handed and you certainly make some good points. I am using part of the second joint of my trigger finger. That's the way I naturally hold this gun and I may need to make some adjustments. I'll see what happens when I go back to the range. My S&W snubbie shoots true to point of aim and I use a similar hold. I have never had this problem with any other gun. I bought the gun used and I immediately removed the factory wooden grips and replaced them with Pachmayer Compac rubber grips because they feel much better to me. It could be that the grips are changing my hold and causing the problem. I will head back to the range this weekend and try out your suggestions I appreciate the help.
The more I think about it, your suggestions make sense because I noticed that I could shoot to point of aim in single action mode. It was only in DA mode that I had a problem. I thought it could be an internal lockup problem with the gun in DA mode but a gunsmith told me that the lockup was tight as it should be.
The more I think about it, your suggestions make sense because I noticed that I could shoot to point of aim in single action mode. It was only in DA mode that I had a problem. I thought it could be an internal lockup problem with the gun in DA mode but a gunsmith told me that the lockup was tight as it should be.
Well... dang.
You could try some lighter stuff too. You may see some improvement, or it could get even worse, but there will probably be some change in point of impact. It's something easy to try, anyway.
Doesn't sound like an ammo or sights problem, then. This is for right handed shooters, reverse it if you are a lefty:
You could try some lighter stuff too. You may see some improvement, or it could get even worse, but there will probably be some change in point of impact. It's something easy to try, anyway.
Doesn't sound like an ammo or sights problem, then. This is for right handed shooters, reverse it if you are a lefty:
Lahey, thanks for the chart. I will print it and carry a copy in my range bag. Sure, I should try some other bullet weights but I didn't want to spend a lot of money on ammo until I had a better idea of what my problem is. I have some other bullet weight ammo around home and I will take some this weekend. It's funny how I can spend $300 on a used revolver and then spend another $300 on ammo until I find out what it likes. Hell, I could have gone ahead and bought a that new Smith & Wesson 327 Night Guard for $800 by the time I'm done tinkering and spending money on ammo and range time. Oh, well, I really like the DS and now I feel like I'm on the way to understanding how to make it perform for me. Thanks again for the help.
Oh, well, I really like the DS and now I feel like I'm on the way to understanding how to make it perform for me. Thanks again for the help.I can appreciate the op's problem because I have one as bad or worse with my like new, late sixties vintage Cobra. I'm a long way from the best pistol shot in the world but I've shot Bullseye competitively since the early sixties and I say this only to make the point that I understand the basics of shooting and I don't think my marksmanship ability (or lack thereof ) is the cause of the problem with my Cobra.
When firing from a rest, off sandbags,from 25 yards, single-action, using a middle of the bull hold, none of six shots hit the paper using 158 grain Hornady JHP/XTP ammunition. Firing the same ammunition but using a 6:00 hold, one of six shots hit the paper and that one only barely came under the very top of the target.
Okay, the gun is shooting high to say the least. I moved up to 15 yards and using the same ammunition, the gun got nice 2 1/2", centered groups but all twelve shots were on the top of the black (7 ring of a 25 yard slow-fire pistol target-the same target I used for all shots), regardless of whether I used a 10 ring hold or a 6:00 hold (this anomaly makes no sense at all and I have to attribute it to shooter error-my 66 year old eyes do better with BoMars than they do with a groove on a top strap).
The next series of shots were done with Buffalo Bore 125 grain, Low Velocity (900 fps, mv), 125 grain JHC bullets, again @ 15 yards and using a 6:00 hold. A very tight group, though shaded to the right, and all high, straddling the 7 and 8 rings.
Finally, I tried shooting Fiocchi SJHP, 148 grain ammunition, again from 15 yards, using a 6:00 hold. This series of shots grouped extremely tight and were perfectly centered but were also high, all falling solidly in the 8 ring.
Because this revolver is one of my favorite guns to carry concealed, I'd like to get it to shoot a mite lower (I guess I could live with the group placement of the Fiocchi ammunition if I could get that with a middle of the bull hold). Windage on the little Cobra is well-nigh perfect.
Like the op, I'd appreciate any advice as to how to get the gun to shoot a little lower-short of sending it back to Colt. I'm thinking the answer might involve coming up with the right relationship between bullet weight and velocity but I'm at a loss right now.
Note: TenRing, I don't mean to usurp your post; I just thought our problems are similar enough that we'd both benefit from the same input rather than me starting a new thread.
) is the cause of the problem with my Cobra.When firing from a rest, off sandbags,from 25 yards, single-action, using a middle of the bull hold, none of six shots hit the paper using 158 grain Hornady JHP/XTP ammunition. Firing the same ammunition but using a 6:00 hold, one of six shots hit the paper and that one only barely came under the very top of the target.
Okay, the gun is shooting high to say the least. I moved up to 15 yards and using the same ammunition, the gun got nice 2 1/2", centered groups but all twelve shots were on the top of the black (7 ring of a 25 yard slow-fire pistol target-the same target I used for all shots), regardless of whether I used a 10 ring hold or a 6:00 hold (this anomaly makes no sense at all and I have to attribute it to shooter error-my 66 year old eyes do better with BoMars than they do with a groove on a top strap
).The next series of shots were done with Buffalo Bore 125 grain, Low Velocity (900 fps, mv), 125 grain JHC bullets, again @ 15 yards and using a 6:00 hold. A very tight group, though shaded to the right, and all high, straddling the 7 and 8 rings.
Finally, I tried shooting Fiocchi SJHP, 148 grain ammunition, again from 15 yards, using a 6:00 hold. This series of shots grouped extremely tight and were perfectly centered but were also high, all falling solidly in the 8 ring.
Because this revolver is one of my favorite guns to carry concealed, I'd like to get it to shoot a mite lower (I guess I could live with the group placement of the Fiocchi ammunition if I could get that with a middle of the bull hold). Windage on the little Cobra is well-nigh perfect.
Like the op, I'd appreciate any advice as to how to get the gun to shoot a little lower-short of sending it back to Colt. I'm thinking the answer might involve coming up with the right relationship between bullet weight and velocity but I'm at a loss right now.
Note: TenRing, I don't mean to usurp your post; I just thought our problems are similar enough that we'd both benefit from the same input rather than me starting a new thread.
Forcing Cone Crude
I have a 2nd. gen Det. Special.
Check for residue buildup in the forcing cone. This would be the smooth area just before you get to the rifle grooves. This buildup cannot be removed by normal brush and bore cleaner. It's a little hard to see. I wet with bore cleaner then use a dental tool that has a 90 deg. bend, I actually scrape the crude out to the bare metal. This will not hurt the barrel if done with normal care. I find this can have a real effect on the accuracy.
I have a 2nd. gen Det. Special.
Check for residue buildup in the forcing cone. This would be the smooth area just before you get to the rifle grooves. This buildup cannot be removed by normal brush and bore cleaner. It's a little hard to see. I wet with bore cleaner then use a dental tool that has a 90 deg. bend, I actually scrape the crude out to the bare metal. This will not hurt the barrel if done with normal care. I find this can have a real effect on the accuracy.
Dfariswheel
New member
Its not really common, but its not unusual for later shrouded barrel Colt "D" frame guns to shoot high and to the left.
This was caused by Colt failing to install the barrel properly.
Usually, the barrel isn't screwed in quite far enough to put the front sight at 12:00 o'clock top dead center.
This causes the gun to shoot to the left, and some shooting at least slightly high.
You can usually see this by comparing the low rib the front sight ramp is machined from versus the frames top strap, and by looking for the front sight to be sitting off to the right, as you sight down the barrel. It'll usually be no more than about 2 degrees off.
The "fix" is to send the gun in to Colt.
They will reset the barrel correctly, and actually stretch the front sight if its still needed after the barrel reset.
The front sight stretch on the later heavy, shrouded barrels used a hydraulic "pincher" device to squeeze both sides of the long sight ramp. This caused the sight to stretch upward.
You can tell a "D" frame sight was stretched by two indentations in the sides of the sight.
Colt never gave me a satisfactory explanation on why they were failing to install the barrels properly even though they knew it was a recurring problem.
In Colt's defense, its difficult to eyeball barrel alignment on the later shrouded guns due to the shape of the front sight and barrel.
Strangely, I seldom ever saw a "D" frame with the barrel on too FAR, it was always not far enough.
Solution: send it in to Colt. Since its a factory defect, they should correct the barrel for free, even though the gun is long discontinued.
To clean the forcing cone, the simple answer is to buy a Lewis Lead Remover kit from Brownell's.
While made to clean leading from bores and forcing cones, it also works well for cleaning copper and carbon fouling from forcing cones.
The kit includes a special cone-shaped device that uses a brass screen to remove any fouling from the forcing cone.
This was caused by Colt failing to install the barrel properly.
Usually, the barrel isn't screwed in quite far enough to put the front sight at 12:00 o'clock top dead center.
This causes the gun to shoot to the left, and some shooting at least slightly high.
You can usually see this by comparing the low rib the front sight ramp is machined from versus the frames top strap, and by looking for the front sight to be sitting off to the right, as you sight down the barrel. It'll usually be no more than about 2 degrees off.
The "fix" is to send the gun in to Colt.
They will reset the barrel correctly, and actually stretch the front sight if its still needed after the barrel reset.
The front sight stretch on the later heavy, shrouded barrels used a hydraulic "pincher" device to squeeze both sides of the long sight ramp. This caused the sight to stretch upward.
You can tell a "D" frame sight was stretched by two indentations in the sides of the sight.
Colt never gave me a satisfactory explanation on why they were failing to install the barrels properly even though they knew it was a recurring problem.
In Colt's defense, its difficult to eyeball barrel alignment on the later shrouded guns due to the shape of the front sight and barrel.
Strangely, I seldom ever saw a "D" frame with the barrel on too FAR, it was always not far enough.
Solution: send it in to Colt. Since its a factory defect, they should correct the barrel for free, even though the gun is long discontinued.
To clean the forcing cone, the simple answer is to buy a Lewis Lead Remover kit from Brownell's.
While made to clean leading from bores and forcing cones, it also works well for cleaning copper and carbon fouling from forcing cones.
The kit includes a special cone-shaped device that uses a brass screen to remove any fouling from the forcing cone.
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Lots of good insights here and I appreciate all the help. My barrel seems to be on straight by my eyeball but these things are subtle and I could be missing something. Sounds like there could be a combination of factors. Not the least of these is my trigger finger position. I wouldn't be surprised if the barrel position is not perfect because my 3rd gen Cobra shoots the same way. I can consistently shoot to POA with my Smiths but not the Colts. That skinny Colt trigger could be causing me trouble as well.
I will send the gun back to Colt as a last resort but I will first explore all the avenues and advice that you guys have given. First, I want to be sure that it's not my fault. I consider myself a decent marksman but I know I can learn a lot for people with more experience.
7 yards sounds about right for these guns but my Smith snubby can consistently knock down pop cans at 20 yards. Something about those Colts that I just don't get.
As suggested by madmag and dfarriswheel, I'm also going to clean the forcing cone with a Lewis Lead Remover kit. Thanks again.
I will send the gun back to Colt as a last resort but I will first explore all the avenues and advice that you guys have given. First, I want to be sure that it's not my fault. I consider myself a decent marksman but I know I can learn a lot for people with more experience.
7 yards sounds about right for these guns but my Smith snubby can consistently knock down pop cans at 20 yards. Something about those Colts that I just don't get.
As suggested by madmag and dfarriswheel, I'm also going to clean the forcing cone with a Lewis Lead Remover kit. Thanks again.
dgludwig, that's ok. Our problems do sound similar and I also have a 3rd gen Cobra that I love to carry. I mean, the gun is an absolute joy to carry but the high-left shots mean that I have to use this gun for up close and personal self defense only. I won't take any shot beyond 15 feet with this gun.
My affinity for the Cobra is the reason why I bought the DS, thinking of using it for a spare gun with the same manual of arms. I was hoping that it would shoot to POA and that the issues with the Cobra would prove to be an anomaly specific to that gun. What kind of accuracy do you get when you shoot your Cobra in single action mode?
Update: I reread your post and saw that you had the same problem in single action mode.
My affinity for the Cobra is the reason why I bought the DS, thinking of using it for a spare gun with the same manual of arms. I was hoping that it would shoot to POA and that the issues with the Cobra would prove to be an anomaly specific to that gun. What kind of accuracy do you get when you shoot your Cobra in single action mode?
Update: I reread your post and saw that you had the same problem in single action mode.
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Dfariswheel
New member
If the gun is shooting POI in single action but not double... that's you, not the gun.
This is a matter of the grips on the gun and how you hold it.
Practice usually fixes the problem.
To diagnose a mis-installed barrel, first look at it to see if the front sight is off to the side.
Second, shoot the gun off sandbags.
Third, have some else shoot it of the bags.
Remember, shooting errors are magnified by short barrel revolvers.
This is a matter of the grips on the gun and how you hold it.
Practice usually fixes the problem.
To diagnose a mis-installed barrel, first look at it to see if the front sight is off to the side.
Second, shoot the gun off sandbags.
Third, have some else shoot it of the bags.
Remember, shooting errors are magnified by short barrel revolvers.
Thanks, DFaris. I will use your suggestions this weekend at the range. I didn't care for the factory wooden grips so I replaced them with Pachmayr Compac rubber grips. It sounds like I need to do some experimentation to find the optimal hold for this gun.
I sincerely hope that the problem is me because I really don't want to send the gun back to Colt.
I sincerely hope that the problem is me because I really don't want to send the gun back to Colt.
Standing Wolf
Member in memoriam
Crud in the forcing cone can, indeed, adversely affect accuracy. That said™, lots of people are likely to gouge forcing cones with dentals tools. I recommend the Lewis lead remover. I believe it's now a Brownell's product; whether it is or not, Brownell's surely will carry it.
If the gun shoots to point of aim in single action, but not in double action, it's probably the shooter's hold that's making the difference. My best advice: start shooting as fast as you can at LARGE paper targets at two yards. That takes a little getting used to, but often accustoms shooters to shooting double action.