I am not a gunsmith, but I have taken 1911's apart enough to understand their workings. My question is, with such a small surface area on the sear and hammer hooks, it would seem to me that the hammer(?) spring forcing everything into engagement would eventually fatigue something. Has anyone here had these parts in their 1911 or Browning Hi Power fail? How long could one of these guns be left cocked while ensuring full reliabilty and safety? Comments-thanks
cocked, locked, and sears
- Thread starter colonel
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The only time I ever had a sear fail on a 1911 was with a bullseye pistol that had a real light trigger pull. I was thumb cocking it (empty) and the hammer slipped. The resulting force broke the half cock notch. But as I said the trigger job was for a bullseye pistol and the total contact area for the half cock notch was about 1/3 that of a normal notch and sear. The sear did not fail nor did the full cock notch. I replaced the sear when I replaced the hammer just to make sure that there was no stress induced cracks.
I will be interested to know if there have been any failures of 1911 hammers and sears that were NOT lightened below a sane trigger pull.
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Ne Conjuge Nobiscum
I will be interested to know if there have been any failures of 1911 hammers and sears that were NOT lightened below a sane trigger pull.
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Ne Conjuge Nobiscum
cornered rat
Moderator
A friend had an old Argentinian 1911 clone back in 1969. The sear let the hammer down, he got a bullet lengthwise though his left arm. The very next day he came to work (a a gas station manager) with the same gun in his holster. I'd guess he had the hammer down on a live round, not sure of details. His arm was in a cast.
Two perps were robbing the place...one was beating the cashier, another pointed a small break-to prevolver at my friend and asked more more money. Got two .45 slugs in the chest, one in the head for the question. The good guy drew and fired before the perp could shoot, even though his gun was already pointed. He "jumped closer" to the other guy and used up the last two rounds (he never re-loaded after that accident). Theat perp went to the prison via the hospital. Result: five shots, five hits, with one hand. Range, about five feet for #1, some 25' for #2. He got a plaque from Minneapolis PD with thanks...turnes out these bastards he shot have been on a streak of robbibg places and then hurting those who cooperated fully.
My friend does not like to talk about it. He does say that "these days" he'd be lucky to stay out of prison, given the bad political vibes...
Actually, I am not sure what the problem was, just that the gun discharged when dropped cocked and lockd....guess that mkes it a safety defect, not sear.
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If you believe in freedom and means of protecting it...you might be a gun nut.
http://ddb.com/RKBA
[This message has been edited by cornered rat (edited February 24, 1999).]
Two perps were robbing the place...one was beating the cashier, another pointed a small break-to prevolver at my friend and asked more more money. Got two .45 slugs in the chest, one in the head for the question. The good guy drew and fired before the perp could shoot, even though his gun was already pointed. He "jumped closer" to the other guy and used up the last two rounds (he never re-loaded after that accident). Theat perp went to the prison via the hospital. Result: five shots, five hits, with one hand. Range, about five feet for #1, some 25' for #2. He got a plaque from Minneapolis PD with thanks...turnes out these bastards he shot have been on a streak of robbibg places and then hurting those who cooperated fully.
My friend does not like to talk about it. He does say that "these days" he'd be lucky to stay out of prison, given the bad political vibes...
Actually, I am not sure what the problem was, just that the gun discharged when dropped cocked and lockd....guess that mkes it a safety defect, not sear.
------------------
If you believe in freedom and means of protecting it...you might be a gun nut.
http://ddb.com/RKBA
[This message has been edited by cornered rat (edited February 24, 1999).]
Rosco Benson
New member
rat; Given that your friend's pistol functioned normally when he was forced to shoot the robbers, it appears unlikely that there was any problem with the sear or hammer. When he injured himself, he must have pulled the trigger. This can hardly be blamed on the sear.
Rosco
Rosco
El Chimango Pete
New member
About the Argentine clones: There were a fair variety - 1911s made with Colt machinery, others made with local setups. Close tolerances and good materials. One 'clone' is the "Ballester Molina", redesigned here and very like the 1911A1 without the grip safety. I have one, did early IPSC with it some 15 years ago (for which i found this feature useful) and still shoot it a lot (along with a P220 and a CZ85, though tend to favor wheelguns) but i wouldn't carry it cocked+locked.
In general these Argentine pistols are good, well made and have never heard of a sear breaking - better perhaps than the locally made High Powers (also good) that are now military and police standard issue - they replaced the 1911's which went on the market:
Many of these are very old, have seen much rough treatment and litle maintenance - I was lucky, got my "Ballester" from original owner: an army "coronel" from the medical core that didn't care for shooting and so was practically unfired.
Maybe something here relevant to cornered R's friends accident... outstanding perfomance and glad the gun came up to scratch in the crunch.
[This message has been edited by Elchimango (edited February 24, 1999).]
In general these Argentine pistols are good, well made and have never heard of a sear breaking - better perhaps than the locally made High Powers (also good) that are now military and police standard issue - they replaced the 1911's which went on the market:
Many of these are very old, have seen much rough treatment and litle maintenance - I was lucky, got my "Ballester" from original owner: an army "coronel" from the medical core that didn't care for shooting and so was practically unfired.
Maybe something here relevant to cornered R's friends accident... outstanding perfomance and glad the gun came up to scratch in the crunch.
[This message has been edited by Elchimango (edited February 24, 1999).]
Rosco Benson
New member
Elchimango; Please don't let me talk you into doing anything that makes you uncomfortable, but I don't see how the lack of a grip safety on the Ballister-Molina would make you reluctant to carry cocked-and-locked. A 1911's grip safety simply prevents reward travel of the trigger when it is not depressed. If the sear were to break and cause the hammer to fall, a pre-Series 80 1911 would fire the chambered round WHETHER OR NOT the grip safety was depressed.
The point of my earler posting was that the pistol didn't "heal" itself. If the sear broke and caused the accident, then the broken sear would not have allowed the pistol to function during the later gunfight. If the sear was intact, then the unintentional/negligent discharge was caused by pulling the trigger when one ought not have. Simple as that.
Rosco
The point of my earler posting was that the pistol didn't "heal" itself. If the sear broke and caused the accident, then the broken sear would not have allowed the pistol to function during the later gunfight. If the sear was intact, then the unintentional/negligent discharge was caused by pulling the trigger when one ought not have. Simple as that.
Rosco
Walt Welch
New member
Gentlemen; I thought you knew. If the manual safety is on, the hammer CANNOT fall. A projection on the manual safety pokes up into a recess in the hammer sort of like a Q when they are engaged.
The ONLY way a cocked and locked 1911 pattern can fire is if dropped muzzle down, and the firing pin (assuming it is not a Series 80 type, which would not allow anything to happen) goes forward on its' own inertia and fires the round in the chamber.
There have been many discussions about the likliehood, or even the possibility, of this happening. Several studies have concluded that it cannot happen. These studies are incorrect. I have personal knowledge of it happening, rendering an innocent bystander a paraplegic. This tragic event could, IMO, have been averted by the installation of an extra power firing pin spring. There is a reason that Wolff puts one in with every recoil spring they sell. Walt
The ONLY way a cocked and locked 1911 pattern can fire is if dropped muzzle down, and the firing pin (assuming it is not a Series 80 type, which would not allow anything to happen) goes forward on its' own inertia and fires the round in the chamber.
There have been many discussions about the likliehood, or even the possibility, of this happening. Several studies have concluded that it cannot happen. These studies are incorrect. I have personal knowledge of it happening, rendering an innocent bystander a paraplegic. This tragic event could, IMO, have been averted by the installation of an extra power firing pin spring. There is a reason that Wolff puts one in with every recoil spring they sell. Walt
Dear Walt,
I owe you an apology for doubting you. When you stated that the thumb safety engages a recess on the hammer I thought you had meant to say sear. As many of these as I have fit on my 1911's and others, you would have thought I would have noticed. Then I realized that every time you fit one, the hammer is always cocked! You can't do it otherwise. I have only noticed the sear engagement surface because thats what you have to file.
To get to the point...I went to my bench and disassembled one and, I'll be damned if it ain't just like you say! Even if the sear nose broke completely off, the hammer can't fall if the thumb safety is on.
By the way - I witnessed a full-auto mag dump at an IDPA match when a sear let go. The shooter was white as a ghost but still pointing downrange after the incident. The suspected cause was a shade tree gunsmith trigger job. Buying good aftermarket hammers and sears will give you a plenty good trigger job that lasts. It may cost a little more - unless your sear lets go when you're NOT pointing downrange...
Mikey - (old dog learning new tricks)
I owe you an apology for doubting you. When you stated that the thumb safety engages a recess on the hammer I thought you had meant to say sear. As many of these as I have fit on my 1911's and others, you would have thought I would have noticed. Then I realized that every time you fit one, the hammer is always cocked! You can't do it otherwise. I have only noticed the sear engagement surface because thats what you have to file.
To get to the point...I went to my bench and disassembled one and, I'll be damned if it ain't just like you say! Even if the sear nose broke completely off, the hammer can't fall if the thumb safety is on.
By the way - I witnessed a full-auto mag dump at an IDPA match when a sear let go. The shooter was white as a ghost but still pointing downrange after the incident. The suspected cause was a shade tree gunsmith trigger job. Buying good aftermarket hammers and sears will give you a plenty good trigger job that lasts. It may cost a little more - unless your sear lets go when you're NOT pointing downrange...
Mikey - (old dog learning new tricks)
Walt Welch
New member
Mikey; I should be ashamed of myself; while I have detail stripped my 1911's, I actually got the information I passed on from a gunsmith. Someone asked me, and I wasn't sure.
At least I had the sense to get a consult; the 'smith was extremely happy with discussing the various possibilities, and I was able to pass on the information to the person who had asked me. It turned out that he had been searching for a definitive answer to the question for over a year.
So, I did know a little more than you, for about 2 or 3 months. Now we know the same amount. Only one way to go; upward and onward! Walt
At least I had the sense to get a consult; the 'smith was extremely happy with discussing the various possibilities, and I was able to pass on the information to the person who had asked me. It turned out that he had been searching for a definitive answer to the question for over a year.
So, I did know a little more than you, for about 2 or 3 months. Now we know the same amount. Only one way to go; upward and onward! Walt
Walt, I am confused.You are saying -- In the 1911 Colt, if there is no sear, and the hammer is in the rearward position, and the manual safety is engaged, the hammer cannot go forward?
I have gone thru my books, and the manual safety is said to be sear blocking -- not hammer blocking. I have not ever tried the above, and it is past my bedtime, so I won't take a 1911 apart tonight. I am curious tho, where is this Q projection, and how does it work, and where does it engage the hammer? I am never too old to learn, however I am a little slow. GLV
I have gone thru my books, and the manual safety is said to be sear blocking -- not hammer blocking. I have not ever tried the above, and it is past my bedtime, so I won't take a 1911 apart tonight. I am curious tho, where is this Q projection, and how does it work, and where does it engage the hammer? I am never too old to learn, however I am a little slow. GLV
GLV,
I had my doubts too! As you can see from my previous post (somewhere above) I did take one apart and Walt is right on.
The Thumb safety is a sear blocking device under normal operation. If the sear breaks, it will also block forward movement of the hammer, although that is not it's primary function. I don't know that I would characterize the shape as a Q but the scalloped out area on the lower part of the hammer (just forward of the strut attachment) is there to allow space for the safety. Hence the reason the hammer must be cocked before you can engage it!
Up until this thread I thought I knew everything - now I have a new reason for living!
I had my doubts too! As you can see from my previous post (somewhere above) I did take one apart and Walt is right on.
The Thumb safety is a sear blocking device under normal operation. If the sear breaks, it will also block forward movement of the hammer, although that is not it's primary function. I don't know that I would characterize the shape as a Q but the scalloped out area on the lower part of the hammer (just forward of the strut attachment) is there to allow space for the safety. Hence the reason the hammer must be cocked before you can engage it!
Up until this thread I thought I knew everything - now I have a new reason for living!
SWAT Sear story...
While attending a rather good class on High Risk Entry, the SSgt. teaching the class was rather upset/horrified that we would smartly pull the slides to the rear and allow them to slam forward (95% Glocks).
He called a cease-fire and told all of us how hard this was on our guns, especially when they are empty. He told how his platoon had an armorer who constantly reminded them not to do such. I raised my hand and asked if they were issued the Government model .45 Auto. He answered in the affirmative, which brought a chorus of bobbing heads from my fellow instructors. As we are always hospitable, to make him feel more comfortable, we did as he asked and rode the slides on our pistols, not wanting to hurt the "sears."
While attending a rather good class on High Risk Entry, the SSgt. teaching the class was rather upset/horrified that we would smartly pull the slides to the rear and allow them to slam forward (95% Glocks).
He called a cease-fire and told all of us how hard this was on our guns, especially when they are empty. He told how his platoon had an armorer who constantly reminded them not to do such. I raised my hand and asked if they were issued the Government model .45 Auto. He answered in the affirmative, which brought a chorus of bobbing heads from my fellow instructors. As we are always hospitable, to make him feel more comfortable, we did as he asked and rode the slides on our pistols, not wanting to hurt the "sears."
So, wait...are you saying that in my Colt Series 80 that I should not allow the slide to slam forward because it will damage the sear?
Also, while we are here, what about that concept that people put a cartridge into the chamber manually, then slam the slide shut on it "so that the extractor gets a good hold, and you prevent slma fires" or something like that. They do this when they are loading up, before they put the full magazine in.
Doggone...I just like to shoot my 1911, and now it seems that there is more to it than just shooting it. Do I have to "baby" this beast?
thad
Also, while we are here, what about that concept that people put a cartridge into the chamber manually, then slam the slide shut on it "so that the extractor gets a good hold, and you prevent slma fires" or something like that. They do this when they are loading up, before they put the full magazine in.
Doggone...I just like to shoot my 1911, and now it seems that there is more to it than just shooting it. Do I have to "baby" this beast?
thad
thaddeus,
Have fun shooting your 1911!
It is NOT good for your pistol to drop the slide on an empty chamber. It can cause excessive battering of the breech face, barrel hood, link & pin, and the sear. You would have to do it a lot and it's most damaging to fine custom guns with very fine trigger jobs. The best rule to follow is to lower the slide by hand when the chamber is empty. After all, the only reason for allowing the slide to fall full force is to chamber a round.
As for putting a round in the chamber manually, for whatever reason, you are asking for trouble! The 1911 is designed to be a controlled feed firearm which means the case head is supposed to slide up the breech face as it's being chambered. It slides under the extractor from the bottom and tuned extractors are radiused on the bottom edges to allow this to happen. Extractors are also tuned for proper tension to allow this process to work well. Manually loading the first round forces the extractor to jump over the case rim putting undue stress on this part. It will eventually break the extractor or screw up the tension adjustment.
The best way to load a 1911 is to do it the way the gun does it. Put the mag in, pull the slide back, let the slide go. The gun knows what to do.
Have fun shooting your 1911!
It is NOT good for your pistol to drop the slide on an empty chamber. It can cause excessive battering of the breech face, barrel hood, link & pin, and the sear. You would have to do it a lot and it's most damaging to fine custom guns with very fine trigger jobs. The best rule to follow is to lower the slide by hand when the chamber is empty. After all, the only reason for allowing the slide to fall full force is to chamber a round.
As for putting a round in the chamber manually, for whatever reason, you are asking for trouble! The 1911 is designed to be a controlled feed firearm which means the case head is supposed to slide up the breech face as it's being chambered. It slides under the extractor from the bottom and tuned extractors are radiused on the bottom edges to allow this to happen. Extractors are also tuned for proper tension to allow this process to work well. Manually loading the first round forces the extractor to jump over the case rim putting undue stress on this part. It will eventually break the extractor or screw up the tension adjustment.
The best way to load a 1911 is to do it the way the gun does it. Put the mag in, pull the slide back, let the slide go. The gun knows what to do.
Art Eatman
Staff in Memoriam
Colonel; Thaddeus: Been "messin with" .45 Gummints since God & I were a lot younger. I have never had problems with recoil springs or magazine springs. I have never had an internal part break. I have never babied my lightweight Commander; I just don't shoot it as frequently as the steel-framed guns.
They work real good, they fit my hand, they're purtier than that black plastic crap and they're single-action like God intended. (If I miss my nap, I get cranky.)
They work real good, they fit my hand, they're purtier than that black plastic crap and they're single-action like God intended. (If I miss my nap, I get cranky.)
Thanks for the replies.
I have owned a Para-14 before and now a fully customized Colt Gubmint. My best shootin buddy of 15 years is a Colt 1911 phreak and has owned more than a few of all styles. Between the two of us and a myriad of other people we shoot with, we have never had a single part malf on our 1911's of any kind. We shoot a lot, like every other day or more when we can, and have been for well over a decade.
On these forums I keep hearing about how fragile the 1911's are and how "they break a lot". I don't get it, this is not consistent with what I have seen.
I have a theory: Many, if not most, serious (really serious) shooters use the 1911. These shooters shoot a LOT. Like ten, twenty or one hundred times more rounds a month than the average shooter. Go to an IPSC match and you have dozens of shooters that all put thousands of rounds a month through their guns, and of course you are going to hear about broken parts among them. Because of the abundance of serious shooters putting a lot of rounds through one kind of gun, you hear an inordinate amount of bad stories, purely due to the amount of use that style of gun gets.
Anyway, that is my theory. It is the only one I can think of to explain all the mysterious stories of the 1911 being prone to broken parts, because I have just never seen it, and I shoot a lot with a fair amount of people that use all guns including 1911's.
Then there is the other theory that there are too many people out there trying to do shoddy "custom" work on their guns, and that is why they fail.
Anyway, I am just a little befuddled because I keep hearing about how "tempermental" and "prone to parts breakage" the 1911 is, and yet I have never seen it happen.
Thanks all. Now I am going to go enjoy this stainless beauty...
thaddeus
I have owned a Para-14 before and now a fully customized Colt Gubmint. My best shootin buddy of 15 years is a Colt 1911 phreak and has owned more than a few of all styles. Between the two of us and a myriad of other people we shoot with, we have never had a single part malf on our 1911's of any kind. We shoot a lot, like every other day or more when we can, and have been for well over a decade.
On these forums I keep hearing about how fragile the 1911's are and how "they break a lot". I don't get it, this is not consistent with what I have seen.
I have a theory: Many, if not most, serious (really serious) shooters use the 1911. These shooters shoot a LOT. Like ten, twenty or one hundred times more rounds a month than the average shooter. Go to an IPSC match and you have dozens of shooters that all put thousands of rounds a month through their guns, and of course you are going to hear about broken parts among them. Because of the abundance of serious shooters putting a lot of rounds through one kind of gun, you hear an inordinate amount of bad stories, purely due to the amount of use that style of gun gets.
Anyway, that is my theory. It is the only one I can think of to explain all the mysterious stories of the 1911 being prone to broken parts, because I have just never seen it, and I shoot a lot with a fair amount of people that use all guns including 1911's.
Then there is the other theory that there are too many people out there trying to do shoddy "custom" work on their guns, and that is why they fail.
Anyway, I am just a little befuddled because I keep hearing about how "tempermental" and "prone to parts breakage" the 1911 is, and yet I have never seen it happen.
Thanks all. Now I am going to go enjoy this stainless beauty...
thaddeus
Ray VanderLinden
New member
Thaddeus and Colonel,
Here are your horror stories.
I have had one sear break, on a Detonics Master Combat. I carried the weapon off duty (and still do) cocked and locked from 1982 until 1994, and fired about 100 rounds a month through it. In September of 1994 I was out teaching my Nephew to shoot handgun when the sear broke. It was a disappointing but very anti-climatic event. The hammer fell to about the halfcock possition Nothing would get the hammer past that position. When I took the pistol apart the nose of the sear had broken off. I replaced it with a Colt sear, did the fitting myself, and had a Gunsmith check my work. The Pistol still has the original hammer and the new sear. I still carry it off duty, and it stays Cocked and Locked just like before about 99.5% of the time.
Here are the rest of my 1911 break downs.
Teh rear sight blade on my use AMT HArdballer came off. I replaced it and the new one left also, Design problem on First gereration guns. I replaced it with a Wichita (like a BoMar) and that ended the problem.
After about 5000 rounds in the same used AMT the barrel blew up. There was no damage to the rest of the gun. Again a design flaw in first generation Hardballers, that allowed gas cutting at the front or the chamber. I replaced it with a NM barrel, and got better acurracy.
Toggle link PIN broke in the Detonics. Don't know excactly when as the weapon never malfunctioned. I found it while cleaning the pistol. I think that was in 1988, Detonics sent me a new one free it is still in there.
The sear story from above.
Bottom of the Toggle link broke in my AMT in 1995. (this was the original link as I put it on the new barrel) The pistol would hand cycle but would not cycle when firing. No other damage. Replaced it with one bought from Brownell's.
Oh Yeah somewhere in the middle I replaced the original slide stop on the AMT because it wouldn't lock back with all my mags.
I have owner the Hardballer since 1977, and bought it used, and as I said the Detonics was new in 1982. I shoot stiff loads in both guns the 230 load I shoot in the Detonics make 900 FPS in a 5 inch barrel. The 200 load is 1025 fps. Each Pistol has a diet of about 100 rounds a month. And as I say the Detonics is still my constant off duty companion, the AMT has retired from my Duty Belt this year. My 14 year old son now puts alot of rounds through it.
Moral? It ain't easy to hurt a 1911.
[This message has been edited by Raymond VanDerLinden (edited March 13, 1999).]
Here are your horror stories.
I have had one sear break, on a Detonics Master Combat. I carried the weapon off duty (and still do) cocked and locked from 1982 until 1994, and fired about 100 rounds a month through it. In September of 1994 I was out teaching my Nephew to shoot handgun when the sear broke. It was a disappointing but very anti-climatic event. The hammer fell to about the halfcock possition Nothing would get the hammer past that position. When I took the pistol apart the nose of the sear had broken off. I replaced it with a Colt sear, did the fitting myself, and had a Gunsmith check my work. The Pistol still has the original hammer and the new sear. I still carry it off duty, and it stays Cocked and Locked just like before about 99.5% of the time.
Here are the rest of my 1911 break downs.
Teh rear sight blade on my use AMT HArdballer came off. I replaced it and the new one left also, Design problem on First gereration guns. I replaced it with a Wichita (like a BoMar) and that ended the problem.
After about 5000 rounds in the same used AMT the barrel blew up. There was no damage to the rest of the gun. Again a design flaw in first generation Hardballers, that allowed gas cutting at the front or the chamber. I replaced it with a NM barrel, and got better acurracy.
Toggle link PIN broke in the Detonics. Don't know excactly when as the weapon never malfunctioned. I found it while cleaning the pistol. I think that was in 1988, Detonics sent me a new one free it is still in there.
The sear story from above.
Bottom of the Toggle link broke in my AMT in 1995. (this was the original link as I put it on the new barrel) The pistol would hand cycle but would not cycle when firing. No other damage. Replaced it with one bought from Brownell's.
Oh Yeah somewhere in the middle I replaced the original slide stop on the AMT because it wouldn't lock back with all my mags.
I have owner the Hardballer since 1977, and bought it used, and as I said the Detonics was new in 1982. I shoot stiff loads in both guns the 230 load I shoot in the Detonics make 900 FPS in a 5 inch barrel. The 200 load is 1025 fps. Each Pistol has a diet of about 100 rounds a month. And as I say the Detonics is still my constant off duty companion, the AMT has retired from my Duty Belt this year. My 14 year old son now puts alot of rounds through it.
Moral? It ain't easy to hurt a 1911.
[This message has been edited by Raymond VanDerLinden (edited March 13, 1999).]
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