Cocked and unlocked carry?

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HKP7PSP

New member
Has anyone thought of cocked and un-locked carry for a 1911 or HiPower? It seems clearly safe with the 1911, because of the grip safety, and I keep on reading that it was designed to be carried unlocked -- or at least was designed to be safe to do so. So if you have, say, a 5lb trigger, do you see any reason why it is bad to carry (in a good holster) unlocked?

I will say I once asked Jeff Cooper if he thought it was a bad idea for the 1911. He said "It is alright with me." I am not sure if he would also say that about the HiPower.
 
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DanP

New member
Unless one had an overwhelmingly good reason why an easily-learned, natural muscle action such as a thumb down was unacceptable...

Why?!?

Personally I really like the thumb safety. The grip one I'm more ambivalent about.

But as Blades so eloquently said... ;)
 
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HKP7PSP

New member
People say that if you use a P7M8, you should use it exclusively because the squeeze-cocking is unique. Personally, I never had a problem with remembering to squeeze the grip of a pistol firmly, but I fear I may forget to remove a safety since I often use double-action pistols. So that is the reason. I fear forgetting to do the action more than I fear pulling the trigger by mistake.

The action of not placing my finger on the trigger until ready to fire is universal -- works for all pistols, and I have that down.
 
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DanP

New member
Can't really argue with your point... as the 1911 "pusher" at my local shop always repeats:

"One Operating System".

Another reason to like my Beretta 97 Target, blind habit on the thumbs up / down state.

OTOH, the rest of the world is annoyingly the reverse for safeties... oh well, any mechanical device can be disabled.
 
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George Helser

New member
HKP7PSP

Am I missing something? Aren’t zillions of Glock users carrying cocked and un-locked when they have a round in the chamber? OK, there is no visible hammer SEEN cocked but the Glocks will fire with a moderate pull on the trigger and unlike a M1911 there is no grip or slide safety!

Regards,
George
In sunny Arizona
 
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Walt Sherrill

New member
Technically, the Glocks aren't "cocked." The striker is set, but it isn't cocked until you pull the trigger, which completes pulling it back, and then releasing it.

And while you can't pull the trigger of a 1911 unless the safety is off and the grip safety is depressed, I think its possible that a 1911, dropped just right, might go off, *IF* the hammer were down.

Apples and oranges.
 
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Lotzinger

New member
Gerorge Helser

the glocks are not carried cocked !

when pressing the trigger of a glock, their hammer will go backwards first. then, you may call it a critical point, the hammer will become released and "bang" - bullet hits your target, hopefully.
glock calls it "safe - action" and in my opinion it is safe.
it is even more a double-action-system than a possibly unsafe single-action-system.
 
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Southern Raider

New member
Yes, Glocks are not "cocked" at rest. There is no compressed spring the release of which has enough energy to fire a primer.

Walt,
Your 1911 concerns are valid on pre-series 80 1911s. Those pistols could go off if dropped just right and with enough force. Muzzle down with the hammer up or down, or on the hammer with the hammer down. The series 80 firing pin safety (also present on the Glock) prevents these types of discharges.
 
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Eric Larsen

New member
A 1911 or HP I wouldnt carry cocked and unlocked...just not prudent. The grip safety and hammer are too close to each other on a 1911...if you happen to fall or bump into something that contact both of them....BOOM! IMO, the gun just isnt designed to be carried that way. 5lb trigger or not....its just not for me, IMO.

Glocks and Kahrs are semi-cocked while a round is chambered..the big difference is the trigger has to finish the final "pull back" on the striker before its released and they have a very well designed striker/firing pin block thats passed every "drop test" known...and no external hammer to bump/hit.

Alot of difference between the two types of actions and such....

Shoot well
 
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Jimmy Mac

New member
The manaul safety on the 1911 if it is properly fitted blocks the sear and it also to some degree blocks the fall of the hammer.

There is no reason to carry one without the safety on. Once you learn the 1911 system you would not forget to release the safety under stress any more than you would forget to pull the trigger.
 
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Futo Inu

New member
"Once you learn the 1911 system you would not forget to release the safety under stress any more than you would forget to pull the trigger."

There's the rub. Actually, it takes more than "learning the system" of a 1911, unless by "learn" you mean practice. It takes practice with the system, not just knowledge of how it works. I have several times under stress forgotten to disengage the safety and pulled the trigger expecting the gun to fire - nothing - most recently at an IPSC intro shoot. But I suspect that once I practice a good bit more, I won't forget.
 
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Omaha-BeenGlockin

New member
Cocked and unlocked----YIKES!!!!

While you should never trust a mechanical safety and the best safety is the one between your ears----that little piece of metal on the side of the gun does add a measure of comfort.
 
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pogo2

New member
I think the real problem with carrying a 1911 cocked and unlocked is - how do you safely holster the gun?

When you grasp the grip to holster the gun, your hand depresses the grip safety. So all safeties are off, and possibly 4 lbs. of force on the trigger will fire it. The trigger guard on a 1911 is pretty narrow compared to a Glock, and the 1911 trigger often is almost as wide as the trigger guard. It is possible that a tight-fitting holster, especially one with a "bump" going slightly into the trigger guard, could engage the trigger during holstering and exert the 4 lbs. of force to fire the gun. Or the retaining strap on a holster could get inside the trigger guard and fire it.

Once the gun is holstered, drawing should be safer, because the gun is moving out of the holster, and any frictional forces will tend to push the trigger forward, rather than backward.
 
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3rd ACR

New member
Pogo2,
I suppose you could holster it with the safety on, then take it off. :confused: Why you would want to is beyond me. I cut my teeth on the 1911 with Uncle Sam and training, training, training made disengaging the safety as instinctive as drawing the weapon. But that's just me...
Carrying cocked and unlocked would make me very nervous.
Slick
 
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the duck of death

New member
You can stuff it in your pants if you want to--me I'm a sissy I carry in cond 3 unless it starts double action and I don't consider a Glock to be double action.
 
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Sarge

New member
Cocked & unGlocked(?)

You got the right idea, Duck. GENUINE D/A or condition 3 is the way to go. The D/A I'm referring to has a long trigger and a hammer, in the down position (like a Sig or Beretta) that you can see with your own two winkers. The mainspring is at rest.

Glocks are like a conditon one 80 series 1911 with a lousy trigger, and the safeties welded 'hot.' Call 'em cocked, under tension, or whatever you want to, but there is one indisputable common denominator between them. A little pressure on the trigger, & boom she goes.

Neither would be my first choice for everyday carry, and that's exactly why. What amazes me is is that the same police Admin types who were horrified by the cocked & locked 1911, think the semi-cocked & unlocked Glock is wonderful.

Oh well, to each his own.
 
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hube1236

New member
If you watched the shooting lessons on American Shooter, Rob Leatham holds the gun so that when the weak hands engage the strong hand during the draw the thumb automatically disengages the safety. This also works in strong hand only. I do not own a 1911, but I have tried this technique on my friend's Springfield, and I never knew it was even there.

Watch the show on OLN, according to the producers, they will be cycling these six shows until February 2003.
 
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