(CO) One-Stop Shopping For Bombmakers

[Drizzt]

One-Stop Shopping For Bombmakers

DENVER, Nov. 11, 2002



A CBS investigation revealed that ingredients -- and instructions -- on how to build a bomb could be bought at a Denver-area gun show.

While it is legal to buy each of the chemicals individually, it's illegal to buy them together as components for explosives. But at this show the vendors don't ask and the customers don't tell.

They look innocent enough, and the names sound like things you might find in a baker's pantry or a chemistry set. But when they're mixed the result is a compound called flash powder that can cause a powerful explosion.

This isn't the work of terrorists using sophisticated materials. The ingredients and the know how to build extremely powerful explosives are easy to come by.

A joint investigation by CBS News and affiliate KCNC found the chemicals needed to build a bomb right out in the open at a Denver-area gun show, along with the printed instructions on how to make them explode.

"What I do is go ahead and put in plugs and all and then put the fuse in and glue it in," explains an unidentified buyer.

While it is legal to buy each of the chemicals individually, it's illegal to buy them together as components for explosives. But at this show the vendors don't ask and the customers don't tell.

An unidentified vendor says anybody buying these ingredients at a gun show would not have a legitimate reason to do so, "unless they purposely wanted to make flash powder."

Flash powder is most commonly used in fireworks, but must be mixed by a licensed explosives expert. Just how volatile is it?

At CBS' request, Sgt. Mark Singer of the Adams County, Colorado bomb squad supervised a demonstration. First, for comparison, he detonated two pounds of dynamite. Then he exploded the same amount of flash powder, which created significantly more damage.

Experts say even a small car could be packed with as much as 500 pounds of explosives.

"Obviously, we want to avoid the big brother thing, but on the other hand we can't ignore situations that could be deadly to who knows how many people," says Singer.

Colorado lawmaker Dan Grossman worries about what amounts to one-stop shopping at gun shows like this one.

"The point is do we make it convenient?" asks Grossman. "Do we create a 7-11 for terrorists?

"Do we create a super store for militia members who want to cause harm to this country and their neighbors? The answer to me is no."

Authorities say they are watching, and prosecute illegal sales when they find them. But back at the gun show, one of hundreds held around the country, that threat doesn't seem to carry much weight.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/11/11/eveningnews/main528922.shtml

CBS News, where fear comes first......

 

[LawDog]

Well, the 'felons buying guns' line didn't work for demonizing gun shows, let's try 'BOMBS' this time.

*sigh*

They'll just keep flinging catchphrases at the public until one actually convinces enough people tha the eeee-vil gun shows will be legislated out of business.


LawDog

 

[Cal4D4]

If you are clever and dedicated enough, a trip to the hardware, grocery and auto supply stores could fill your terrorist needs also. Worry more about the criminals and less about the tools.

 

[Grydon]

confusion has reared it head

Since when is flash powder more powerful then dynamite? for real dynamite is basicly nitroglycerin soaked in diatomasious(spelling may be off) earth. while that may slow the rate of the reaction flash powder should still not be as powerful as dynamite much less more powerful. of course maybe i am wrong.

 

[vulcan]

I hope the media doesn't spin this so every reloader looks like bombbuilder! My UPS guy already gives me dirty looks when I receive my reloading supplies!

 

[Monkeyleg]

For cryin' out loud, back in junior high I made "incendiary" bombs from magnesium and other componets purchased from the local hobby shop and pharmacy.

I didn't have to go to a (gasp!) gun show to learn how to make them. The basic outline was right there in a book in the school library about the bombing of Dresden.

The local papers taught me how to make a particularly ghastly bomb: take a standard light bulb; drill two small holes; fill with gasoline; plug holes; insert into socket. The only problem with the perpetrator in the story was that he didn't check to see if the wall switch was set to the "off" position before he screwed in the bulb.

 

[twoblink]

I can blow up any building under 10 stories with the following stores available to me:

Home Depot
Radio Shack
Rite Aid

What is this gun-show crap? At home depot, I can pretty much find all that I need to blow everybody sky high.

Let me give you an example:

Buy a nice air compressor, fill it with air.

A nice box of nails; a gopher gasser in the compressor tube.

From radio shack, an electronic timer, with the buzzer removed and the gopher gasser attached instead.

That's a SMALL bomb.

replace air compressor with a small propane tank, and you are talking serious boom.. Remember, make the nails small for a small spread, and big fat nails for a large spread.

It takes a 3rd grade drop out with $100 to make a bomb from home depot..

Let's take a look at the math shall we?

5 boxes of 1000 nails: $25
1 roll duct tape: $3
Electronic Egg timer: $7
Tank of propane: $25
1 box of gopher gassers: $12

Grand total for a bomb that will level a building or kill hundreds: $72.

Again, the story is full of bullSht, designed to fill people with FUD, Fear Uncertainty and Doubt...

I can name you thousands of ways to make a bomb; from something as easy as Comet+Clorex in the subway system... All this is a joke; from reports who obviously have flunked chemistry class... :barf:

 

[Langenator]

When I was in high school, I had a book, bought at an everyday bookstore, called the Anarchist Cookbook. Told how to make all sorts of explosives. Sometime while I was at college, my mother unfortunately threw it out.

From a friend in high school, I learned that you can make mustard gas by mixing ammonia and chlorine-based bleach. (One dumb kid at scout camp confirmed this while cleaning the toilet one day.)
I was also told that you can make a crude kind of napalm by mixing gasoline into heated ivory liquid soap.

And in college, right after the OKC bombing, the Lieutenant Colonel in charge of the ROTC program, an Ordnance officer with EOD experience, told us exactly how to build the bomb McVeigh used. Ammonia based fertilizer and diesel fuel.

And I wonder if the books on how to make explosives the reporter saw were US Army manuals on improvised explosives?

All any wannabe terrorist needs to do nasty stuff today is internet access and a few bucks. But don't tell the press that.

 

[MuzzleBlast]

Wasn't it CBS that rigged that pickup truck to explode on film to prove that Chevy trucks explode when hit from the side? I've said this many times: I have to seriously question the intelligence of anyone who is watching CBS when there isn't a football game on.

 

[Hutch]

MB, the rigged truck was an NBC trick. Not that it matters. Regarding gun shows and bomb making, it doesn't matter that you can get the components at Home Depot. This is just an attempt by the Brady Bunch to fling poop against the wall to see what sticks. This will subside if it doesn't get traction (it won't) and we'll see what the next abomination being conducted at gun shows is. There's already a gathering wave against the "classified ad" loophole. And the Internet loophole

You have to understand, these people believe they are serving the Greater Good. Can't let a little thing like facts get in the way of the Truth.

 

[foghornl]

have to seriously question the intelligence of anyone who is watching CBS when there isn't a football game on.

See my reply under 'Dan Rather & CBS' in this forum for my overall opinion of Dan Blather & Company at the Communist Broadcasting System

But I do watch "Everybody Loves Raymond" on Monday nights....other than that, my tv is usually on Fox News Net.

As I recall, NBC rigged the truck gas tank explosion.

One-stop shopping? ? ? Anybody got the tapes from the MacGuyver (sp?) TV series? That guy could make bombs from pipe cleaners & corn meal....

 

[Sindawe]

Point of chemical correction

Folks, point of clarity:

Mixing ammonia and chlorine based bleach DOES NOT produce mustard gas. Mustard gas is recognized as 1,1-thiobis(2-chloroethane) with the chemical formula of Cl-CH2-CH2-S-CH2-CH2-Cl. Degradation in water (H2O) will produce 3 molecules of Hydrochloric acid (HCl)/molecule of mustard gas as well as additional organic compounds.

Mixing strong acids and bases (here ammonia) with chlorine based bleach WILL produce free chlorine gas, which itself is an irritant and toxic. Chlorine as also used in WWI as a chemical weapon, so it is very understandable how the two can be confused and over time though of as the same thing.

The two are totally different animals, and mixing/mislabeling the two bugs me as much as when the anit-gun folks call a autoloading rifle for civilian consumption such as the AR-15 a machine gun.

---------

This chemistry lesson brought to you by the letters F, A and L, and the characters . 3, 0 and 8

 

[Langenator]

Wow...I did not know that...many apologies.

I know that what the poor sod did made a nasty greenish cloud and he was messed up for a bit. And we didn't make him clean the latrine for the rest of the summer.

Think the farm supply company would be suspicious if I ordered 2000 pounds of fertilizer delivered to my quarter acre suburban lot?

 

[labgrade]

Local/Denver Channel news is doing a hit piece on (gasp!) being able to buy parts for "machine guns." Seems a local got tagged for having an M16 selector switch AND an AR series. His PI did a secret filming of buying "stuff" at a Denver gun show in hopes of mitigating his client's past behavior.

The Chnl 4 piece sucked & was about as factual as one who had any basic would expect - right up there with "investigative reporting" on the Beltway shooter case ....

... from RMGO 11/11/02

"Tonight (Monday, Nov. 11th) Channel 4 News at 10 p.m. will air a "story" about gun shows and the parts sold there. It is a companion piece to the story that air on Sunday evening about explosives being sold at gun shows (the story that failed to
mention that all kinds of explosives can be purchased as fertilizers, home cleaning products, etc).

I was contacted by reporter Rick Salinger last week, and viewed a video tape of a purchase made at a gun show. The part purchased was a selector lever for an M-16 (4 position). Salinger then taped my comments.

For those who are not knowledgeable in this area, it is illegal to own that particular part if you have an AR-15. The ATF claims it proves you are attempting to convert your rifle to select fire (full auto), which is in violation of the 1934 National Firearms
Act (foisted upon gun owners by none other than the National Rifle Association).

However, it is not illegal to sell that part: there are many Title II weapons owners who need replacement parts.

This entire story stems from a gun owner whom the ATF is prosecuting for owning an AR-15 and the M-16 selector group. This gun owner didn't use the weapon in a crime, nor did he attempt to convert the weapon to full auto (at least, that is what we understand). He committed a crime of possession.

When this gun owner and his attorney realized that he needed to prove how easy it was to violate this law, they hired a private investigator to smuggle a hidden camera into a gun show and film the sale of these parts. Presumably the film failed to
convince the jury and so the defendant found a reporter to air the story.

According to Salinger at Channel 4, this gun owner is going up the river. Though we do not know the specific sentence, we do know that violations of the NFA are punished severely -- this man could spend the better part of a decade behind bars, all for having the wrong parts.

In our view, federal agents should be pursuing REAL terrorists, not unwitting and law-abiding citizens who run afoul of the 22,000 gun laws in America. When interviewed I defended the sale of the part and sympathized with the ATF's victim on one specific point: even experts can't agree on what is legal and illegal, leading gun owners into a no-win situation.

Salinger admitted (hopefully, he admits it on camera) that the ATF agents had only a loose hold on the legalities of purchasing/owning these kind of parts. As John Ross
details in his book "Unintended Consequences" the ATF knows little about the laws they attempt to enforce. If the information about the sale of M-16 selector parts is accurate, the seller did nothing illegal. In fact, if the News 4 story even alludes to
illegal activity by the seller we will urge him to sue the channel.

What should alarm gun owners is the tone of this prosecution, and where the ATF could possibly get the revenue to operate this kind of investigation.

This prosecution, and thousands like it across our country, are the direct result of an insidious program called Project Exile.

We have dubbed Project Exile with a more accurate moniker: Project Gestapo (credit goes to KHNC's witty talk show host and great American Mark Call (& a great personal friend, BTW - labgrade)).

Project Gestapo is a private/public partnership designed to do one thing: prosecute ANY firearms violations at the highest level possible and with the most resources at the prosecutor's disposal.

Some gun owners have bought into the Project Gestapo trap, banging the "don't pass new laws, just enforce those we have now." Much of Project Exile is an attitude about gun laws -- that violating these laws cannot be tolerated in any form. But
banging that gong is dangerous, since it empowers bureaucrats to launch a witch hunt for gun owners.

To many gun owners (undoubtedly including some of the readers of this diatribe) Project Gestapo is an appeasement to the gun control monster. This attitude -- I don't have that kind of weapon, so I don't care if they make it illegal" is widely
prevalent in America's shooting culture, and may even be held by a majority of competitive shooters, who care so deeply about their sport that they are willing to throw a bone to the gun ban crowd in order to protect their specific, cherished method of shooting. Winston Churchill said "An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last."

Why call it Project Gestapo? Simple: its program encourages citizens to stick their nose into their neighbors business and rat on them for "illegal firearms." The secret police of the Nazi regime used these kinds of tactics not only to corner those in
disfavor with the state but also to inflame a populace against a particular group in their society.

Where does Project Gestapo get its money? It has numerous sources, including leftist foundations and corporations, but it's most prominent donors will surprise many.

The most alarming sources of Project Gestapo's funding are the NRA and Sarah Brady's gun-grabbing organization. In February of 2000 the NRA's Wayne LaPierre joined James Brady and a bevy of lawmakers at a Denver news conference to unveil the launching of Project Gestapo in Colorado. They showed TV advertisements, billboards and other tools used to get citizens to turn in their neighbors for "illegal guns." To see samples of their advertisements, go to:

http://www.rmgo.org/Gestapo

Why would the NRA fund this kind of project? The NRA is terribly sensitive to the media and the perception of politicians. They desperately want to avoid being branded as the radicals on the issue, and so they dabble in projects that bolster their
image with these two groups. LEAA, which is the NRA's shill organization for law enforcement officers, is just one example, while Project Gestapo may be the most damaging example.

If you think you are insulated from this type of case because you don't touch illegal guns, think again. Project Gestapo wants hides hung on the barn, and care little if they only prosecute paperwork violations. That retractable stock you may own, for
instance, could be used on a rifle that isn't allowed to have one, making you a target for prosecution. One prominent Denver attorney estimates that Denver's federal bench is using 70% of its time to prosecute "gun crimes." As a gun owner, expect to be villified."

Ends notice ....

Too, Colorado law specifically states that the ingredients must be mixed, the container/timer must be modified and/or there must be intent to make an explosive device.

But that's just us. The Feds may have another whole different outlook.

 

[Mike Irwin]

Jesus Christ...

Any kid who can read a book taken from just about any public library in the United States can construct a powerful and lethal bomb.

 

[Mike Irwin]

"Think the farm supply company would be suspicious if I ordered 2000 pounds of fertilizer delivered to my quarter acre suburban lot?"

Depends on the fertilizer.

Some are useful for producing explosives, some simply aren't.

Order a ton of the right stuff, and you'll likely attract some unwanted attention.

Order a ton of the wrong stuff, and you'll have the lushest lawn in the state.