CMP High Power Shooters?

[Reidman]

I shot my first high power match last September and despite my poor shooting I enjoyed it greatly. The range master let me use one of the club guns, a Bushy HBAR. I finally have the time to get back into shooting and I plan on getting involved in some matches this spring. Right now I have been practicing with a Daewoo DR-200 I picked up from my uncle. It shoots ok and I like shooting with it but if something major breaks I have to go to Korea to get it fixed.

So for all those CMP shooters out there...

1) What is your rifle of choice?

2) How much coin did you drop?

3) Any advice besides practice practice practice?

 

[P-990]

Rifle of Choice

If you want to shoot CMP matches (Excellence in Competition matches, the P-100 and NTI at Camp Perry) and NRA matches, an AR-15 in a Service Rifle configuration is pretty much THE rifle to get. Nothing else worthwhile, unless you want to get into a true Match Rifle.

Good rifles are available out of the box from Rock River, Armalite and even DPMS:
Rock River NM

Armalite NM

Also as an option, you can buy an upper from White Oak and mate it to a lower of your choosing.

Expect to drop between $1000 and $1500 for the rifle.

Really, you need a free-float tube, 1/2-MOA (or finer) sights and a good trigger. Fine points will vary on experience and preference. Slings will vary also; some use the cotton M-1 type, others of us use the 1907-pattern.

Oh yeah, and practice practice practice. Dry-firing at home helps, as does range time at reduced ranges and at full-course ranges. Trigger time helps, but it has to be quality, well practiced and rehearsed trigger time. Blowing ammo for the sake of making noise is counter-productive to good habits. (I use a .22 or pistols for those gotta-blast days.)

Get into reloading, as it will save you a bundle of money on good match ammo and is the ONLY way to get satisfactory 600-yard loads IMO. I started off buying into the "shoot cheap ball ammo (or similar reloads) for practice" philosophy, but quickly switched to shooting my best bullets all the time. Most ball ammo is good only if you're happy to shoot edge to edge on the 7" 10-ring at 200 and 300. Otherwise it is a waste of barrel-life on a match barrel to shoot anything but the good stuff.

Lastly, my personal rifle is an Armalite M-15NM with stock sights, stock trigger, a WOA 1-7" Wilson barrel (replaced the original). It works for me, shoots accurately and is very forgiving to shoot. I use a Turner Biothane All-weather sling of the 1907-pattern. Other gear can be added as you grow, but a good rifle will stay with you.

Good luck and stick with it! A few matches and some serious practice and you'll be surprised how well you can shoot and how far you can do it.

 

[rbrgs]

If you start shooting High Power matches, you'll hear this a lot: "Get a Garand"

 

[MythBuster]

If you want to progress quickly in highpower competition the Garand is the LAST rifle you want.

If two shooters of about the same ability start off, one with a Garand and the other with an AR, the AR shooter will make expert in less than half the time it will take the Garand shooter.

The AR is so much eaiser and quicker to master.

 

[Logs]

Shot my second match this summer at Camp Perry. I used my Garand which I have about $500 in. A buddy of mine is going the AR15 route and he has over $1,500 in his gun. I recommend the Garand since the CMP has them for a great price. GOOD Luck.

 

[rbrgs]

I didn't say shoot a Garand, just get one. It's the rifle our guys carried when they won the war--every serious rifleman needs one.

 

[nbkky71]

rbrgs: don't confuse the John C. Garand matches with the CMP National Trophy matches. While you can shoot an M1 in the trophy matches, the firing line is dominated by the AR15 nowadays. A accurized M1 Garand rifle can be built, but it will set you back some serious $$$, and is more maintenance-intensive to keep it accurate.

A good starter would be a service rifle upper from John Holliger at white oak armament. They are quite affordable and shoot very well. I've been shooting one for 3 years now and am on my third barrel. I'm shooting a standard Bushmaster XM15E2 lower. Spend the money and get a good trigger too. I shot a Rock River tuned NM trigger until I upgraded to a Geiselle this year. Well worth the $279!

The key to shooting well is mastering the basics: 1) position 2) breathing 3) trigger control and 4) sight alignment. Consistency is important as well.

The truth is that practice is important, but be sure to make it quality practice. As P-990 said, shooting just to make noise is counter-productive. I shoot live-fire once a week on Sunday morning and I shoot no more than 50 rounds at a time. Anything more feels like a waste to me.

It's also important to take periodic breaks as well. I had been shooting for the past year and felt like I had plateau'd at EXPERT level. After taking a couple months off I came back into the sport and my scores shot up. It paid off because I just got my MASTER class card in the mail today!

 

[Tim R]

If you want to progress quickly in highpower competition the Garand is the LAST rifle you want.

Not always so! If you want to pass up the guy who started out with the AR shoot the 30 until it won't move you around while in position then get the AR. The problem is the 30 is twice the money to shoot even if you reload.

Reidman......

RRA makes a very good NM service rifle which will take you to master right out the box. The other thing that comes with the RRA NM is their 2 stage trigger which is one of the better 2 stage triggers available until you get into the big bucks.

When I went from a match tuned 308 M-1 to the AR 3 years ago, I bought a RRA NM lower, and a upper from http://www.whiteoakprecision.com/. I had about $1100.00 in a top shelf match tuned service rifle. One thing I really like is the pinned rear sights WOP does. This keeps the rear sight from moving back and forth. The other thing I like is the rear sight comes with different size's of rear aperture's which can be changed depending on the light. I like and use 1/4 X 1/4 MOA sights on the AR.

I now have 2 WOP uppers. Both shoot 77 and 80 gr Match Kings like a house of fire. I could not be more happy with either upper. I took the new upper to Perry this year. The one thing I hate with these rifles is if the bullet doesn't go where you wanted it to, it's not the rifle and it's not the ammo.

I hate this time of year as range time is hard to get, I don't think my 4X4 would make into the range.

As for the sling, I use a leather sling after being treated with neats foot oil and streched over night. Just keep the oil away from the keepers.

 

[rbrgs]

I bought a Bushmaster through the CMP in 2000, later I put on a bloop tube and aperture front sight, but what I actually shoot these days is an AR15 service rifle that looks like a 1965 M16, not a 1985 M16A2 (I had to grind out the insides of the A1 handguards to make them fit the free float tube, the barrel is 1X12 so I can shoot 55gr ball, the sights are 1/2MOA...it makes sense to me)
When I just shoot for fun, I shoot a Garand or .30 Carbine, but then I never shoot beyond 200yds 'cause I live on an island (Hawaii) and our club is the only place I can shoot without flying somewhere.

 

[Casimer]

Reidman are these CMP matches 100yd matches? - how far will you be shooting?

If they're 100yd matches, a Garand is probably fine. BUT if you're going to be shooting to 300 or 600 yards with pit service (i.e. live people in pits under your targets), you shouldn't shoot a Garand unless you've had it worked on. It's a safety issue.

If you're considering an AR, check out nationalmatch.us - it's an HP forum w/ a buy/swap/sell section. You can put together a decent match AR for a lot less than a new one.

 

[kittyhawk]

PM sent


Dave

 

[Scorch]

are these CMP matches 100yd matches?

CMP= Civilian Marksmanship Program

CMP shoots are typical of other matches. They are shot at actual and reduced distances, across-the-course or one position, three distances or one distance, in other words they are varied to meet the needs and abilities of the shooters and the capabilities of the firing range. They are a great way to get used to the rules and procedures of firing matches. Ask who directs them at your local gun club.

 

[Reidman]

100 yard range

The matches at my range are 100 yards with reduced size targets to simulate range. I would like to travel sometime to check out a true 600 yard match. Camp Perry is a name I hear a lot around here.

The range master also teaches a class at the college here in town. I shot small bore at 50ft and earned expert rank. That's what started it all...

Rock River is a rifle I have been looking at for a while. From what I hear its the best intersection of quality and value available.

 

[nbkky71]

...you shouldn't shoot a Garand unless you've had it worked on. It's a safety issue

Any M1 with a good condition barrel should be easily able to hit paper at 500/600 yards (assuming the shooter is doing their part). You may not shoot a great score, but you won't be unsafe.

If your rifle is having a genuine safety issue, it shouldn't be on the firing line in the first place.

 

[Casimer]

I can definitely recommend the RRA National Match A2. That's what I'd started with. They're quality rifles.

By safety issue, I don't mean that the rifle is going to explode, I mean that the rifle may be so inaccurate that it endangers the pit crew. If the standard is simply getting on paper, then there's also a good chance that you're off paper and hitting target frames, carriers, and other hard objects away from the targets. I'm sure that if you called the CMP and asked them whether you should take your newly received rack/field/service grade Garand to a 600yd XTC match they'd tell you to have it worked on by a gunsmith first.

 

[nbkky71]

If the M1 can't hit a 72" target at 600 yards, then any serious competitor should realize that something is wrong well before they walked up the long line. Most M1's will shoot around 4MOA, on average...maybe a little less using quality ammo. True, an inaccurate rifle can be a danger to others. At such point a line official should prevent the competitor from firing any further.

I'm sure that the CMP will tell you that in order to be competitive in an XTC match you'll need to have your M1 worked on (ie - accurized). You'll get no arguments from me on that point. I just recently took posession a full-tilt match M1 built on a Springfield 5.8mil receiver that will shoot around 1.5MOA using M852 ammo. Believe me, it cost a pretty penny to get that level of accuracy.

Yes, there are certain things that you'll want to check out with any M1 before you start shooting, such as a snug gas cylinder and tight gas cylinder plug. But to call an M1 unsafe just because it's a rack/service grade rifle is a bit much.

fyi... I have shot my CMP service grade H&R 5.7mil at 600 yards using Greek M2 ball. It wasn't the best score I've ever shot, but all rounds were on-paper.

 

[rbrgs]

The minimum acceptable accuracy for an issued Garand is 4MOA. Every CMP Garand that I've shot (and that's plenty) would hold at most 3" at 100yds; that's 18" at 600 with M2 ball (and yes, I have shot LC68 at 600yds through an as issued Garand, I even won the match)
If you're hitting the target frame, don't blame the rifle.
PS How many people hit the target frame with a 1/4MOA Space Gun 'cause they misjudged the wind? The one time I shot at a range with pits, the frames were wood. Sounds like unsafe range design to have steel over the pit crews head. Anybody else? Is it common for target frames to be made out of steel?

 

[Casimer]

If you guys are attending matches where they'll allow you to use ball ammo at 600yds, then we're dealing w/ entirely different standards of safety. Good luck - wear a helmet!

 

[rbrgs]

Casimer, where exactly do you shoot that they don't "allow" ball ammo? CMP Competition Rules, 10th edition, 6.6.1 Rifle Ammunition "If ammunition is not issued by the match sponsor, rifle competitors may use any safe ammunition..."
I don't have my NRA book in front of me, but their rule is the same. What exactly is unsafe about shooting 18" on a 72" target? And compared to Joe Beginner with a 1/4MOA Space Gun who has no experience judging the wind (assuming he even has a 600yd zero). Where do you think 2 and 8 came from?
Have you ever even shot a Garand?
The CMP sells Garands so folks can get into High Power without spending a lot of money; it replaces the old Dep't of Civilian Marksmanship, which was all about getting M1 Garands (one per lifetime, but they were cheap) into the hands of High Power Competitors. For you AR guys who just tuned in, the M1 Garand was the Service rifle for several generations, while Match Rifles were almost all bolt guns.

 

[nbkky71]

Since when is ball ammo unsafe?

The CMP says that competitors may use any safe ammunition. The NRA says no tracers (and possibly no AP ammo). Any ammo may be fired without danger to competitors or range personnel. Ammo that repeatedly blows primers or splits cases can be ruled unsafe.

If you're hitting everything else BUT the target then there's probably something else wrong other than your ammo.