Chiappa to Use RFID Tags

[KyJim]

This came up in another, unrelated thread so I thought I would start a new thread about the decision by Chiappa to start inserting RFID tags in their guns. These would include the Rhino revolver, their .22 1911-style pistol, and other guns.

Apparently some gun bloggers picked up on this and made some negative comments. MKS Marketing, which imports and distributes Chiappa guns from Italy, sent out an incredibly crass press release. Key points include:

• it will be a passive RFID tag, starting in about a year, for inventory control and tracking
• "The Chiappa PASSIVE RFID can be read ONLY when passed within (2-3 inches) of an active (and powered) reader . . . "
• "For those still concerned you can simply remove the grip and remove the hot glued RFID from the frame in the grip area when (over a year from now) these begin to appear."
• "Others may prefer to wrap the revolver and their head in aluminum foil, curl in a ball and watch reruns of Mel Gibson’s 1997 film, Conspiracy Theory. Well, that’s a plan too!"

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/...the-revolver-and-their-head-in-aluminum-foil/
and
http://thetruthaboutguns.com/2011/0...rights-supporters-confirms-chiappa-rifd-chip/

Several blogs have reported this, though I can't find it on MKS or Chiappa's websites.

So, what's the truth? First, it is nonsensical for an inventory control system to be able to read even a passive RFID chip from only two or three inches away. Several sources cite the ability to read passive RFID chips 50 feet or more away.

Mahaffey and two of his colleagues demonstrated how he could increase the "read range" of radio frequency identification (RF) tags from the typical four to six inches to approximately 50 feet. Mahaffey said the tags could be read at a longer distance . . .

Today @ PC World – http://blogs.pcworld.com/staffblog/archives/000798.html

Referring to a pilot program to use cheap, passive RFID tags:

Any tag within that node's transmission range then emits its own 6.7 GHz signal, which can be received by a Tagent reader up to 20 meters (65.6 feet) away.

"Chip-size Passive RFID Tag Promises Long Range"
RFID Journal by Claire Swedberg , Feb. 3, 2009
http://www.rfidjournal.com/article/view/4585

Now, what's this about having to remove a hot-glued tag? That doesn't sound like it comports with even the most minimal manufacturer friendly "best practices" guide. The Federal Trade Commission described one such industry guide:

The first element, consumer notice, requires that companies using EPC tags “on products or their packaging” include an EPC label or identifier indicating the tags’ presence. . . .

The Guidelines’ second requirement, consumer choice, concerns the right of consumers to “discard or remove or in the future disable EPC tags from the products they acquire.” The Guidelines explain, “for most products, the EPC tags [would] be part of disposable packaging or would be otherwise discardable.”

RFID: Radio Frequency Identification Workshop Report of FTC Staff, March 2005, p. 17
http://www.ftc.gov/os/2005/03/050308rfidrpt.pdf

The real concern as it relates to firearms is for the government to be able to make use of this information to secretly track firearms and for police to do an electronic "pat down" whenever they want.

I, for one, will not buy a Chiappa firearm so long as they plan on selling their firearms with the RFID chips implanted. They could use the chips for inventory control and then simply remove the chips once they reach MKS here in the U.S.

Sorry about being long winded. Just had to put a little background info into this. Otherwise, some folks might think I'm sitting here with a tin foil hat on top of my head.

 

[Ridge_Runner_5]

Fortunately nobody in their right minds would waste a perfectly useless dollar bill on a Chiappa firearm.

 

[BarryLee]

Well, not sure I would worry too much about this right now. The way those idiots in Washington are acting it is hard to imagine that any of them will have enough political capital to implement any new gun laws, but you never know. The technology does exist and you know how we think technology solves all problems. Oh well got to go and run down to the Army/Navy store and get some more of that heavy duty tin foil my hat blew away when the black helicopters flew over my bunker I mean house.

 

[JohnKSa]

Mahaffey and two of his colleagues demonstrated how he could increase the "read range" of radio frequency identification (RF) tags from the typical four to six inches to approximately 50 feet. Mahaffey said the tags could be read at a longer distance . . .

Using a setup consisting of multi-element antennas that look to be something like 12 feet long based on the photograph. Given the nature of the system, it wouldn't be possible to set something like that up inside a vehicle because the metal body would largely block the signals and it's certainly not portable in any conventional sense of the word. I suppose it could be set up on a particular building but it would be a lot easier to just put metal detectors up and then you'd catch all the guns, not just the ones made by Chiappa.

Small, passive devices like an RFID tag are a short range affair unless you are willing to deal with large antennas and/or high power, neither of which is really suitable for anything covert.

The first article that you cite states that the normal range for an RFID reader is "typical<ly> four to six inches", so the (currently unattributable) press release is reasonably accurate when it states that the range is "2-3 inches".

The second article about long-range passive RFID tags are about a special purpose variety of RFID tags specifically designed to provide "long range" readability. It is a special purpose application that uses not just a tag and a reader but also a transmit node that must be within a meter of the tag to "excite" the tag to allow a more distant reader to be able to detect/read the tag. Basically you'd only be able to read tags that are within 3 feet of one of the transmit nodes. It doesn't really have any bearing on the situation under discussion at all.

Now, what's this about having to remove a hot-glued tag? That doesn't sound like it comports with even the most minimal manufacturer friendly "best practices" guide. The Federal Trade Commission described one such industry guide:

In my experience, hot glue comes off quite easily and typically leaves no residue on any reasonably smooth surface. It's not designed to be a super strong adhesive like an epoxy but rather more of a potting compound. It does get very hard when it cools, but it doesn't stick well. In a former life I did a lot of work with hot glue and it's ideal for an application that requires something to be rapidly stuck in place but easily removed later if necessary.

...RFID chips implanted.

Sorry, but this is nonsense. There is no reasonable sense of the word "implanted" that equates to something stuck in place inside a grip with a blob of hot glue. Grips are made to be easily removed by even the most mechanically challenged individuals and knocking off a piece of hot glue is even easier.

The real concern as it relates to firearms is for the government to be able to make use of this information to secretly track firearms and for police to do an electronic "pat down" whenever they want.

Clearly neither Chiappa or MKS is trying to keep this a secret if they're doing press releases about it, and the information you've provided explains how the customer can easily remove the tag.

So first of all, "secretly" is a misnomer since the information is certainly not secret.

And secondly nobody can do any kind of a pat down or track the firearms unless the buyer chooses to leave the RFID tag in place.

There may be some good reasons to avoid Chiappa firearms, but this ain't one of them.

 

[riverwalker76]

I'll be honest .... I had never HEARD of the company until the hype with the recent 'Rhino' release.

I'm not too concerned considering that fact alone since I will probably never own a Chiapa.

Now, if Remington or Winchester came out and said the same thing ... I'd be worried.

 

[KyJim]

Using a setup consisting of multi-element antennas that look to be something like 12 feet long based on the photograph.

That's what it took an unfunded hacker to do in 2005. With the inevitable increase in technology and miniaturization, that's bound to change.

The second article about long-range passive RFID tags are about a special purpose variety of RFID tags specifically designed to provide "long range" readability. . . . Basically you'd only be able to read tags that are within 3 feet of one of the transmit nodes. It doesn't really have any bearing on the situation under discussion at all.

I cited it as a source from a reputable journal to demonstrate the potential of even passive RFID technology.

In my experience, hot glue comes off quite easily and typically leaves no residue on any reasonably smooth surface.

But that doesn't make it easily removable in the sense that it's snip and toss as the "best practices" guide indicates.

Clearly neither Chiappa or MKS is trying to keep this a secret if they're doing press releases about it, and the information you've provided explains how the customer can easily remove the tag.

So first of all, "secretly" is a misnomer since the information is certainly not secret.

First, I did not say they secretly implanted a chip. What I said was that there is a concern (long range) that the government could track and gather information or to develop a reader to do an electronic pat down, even if it's not 50 or 60 feet away. There was the day that nobody thought infared, cell phone tracking, and other would be used by law enforcement.

Second, I do not know how the information about the Chiappa RFID chips first came out. The press release referenced was in reaction to public discussion about their chips. They insulted those voicing concerns by suggesting they should wear aluminum foil hats, etc. Their callousness and demeaning of potential customers is incredibly stupid, IMO, but that's a different issue.

I will concede we don't yet know if Chiappa is going to conspicuously label their gun/packaging to indicate there is an RFID tag on the gun, where it is, and how to remove it. Not a lot of shooters are going to know about the tags otherwise.

-----------------

The way those idiots in Washington are acting it is hard to imagine that any of them will have enough political capital to implement any new gun laws, but you never know.

This isn't about new gun laws. It's about
the potential of law enforcement to detect and/or track guns at some time in the future.

------

I'm not too concerned considering that fact alone since I will probably never own a Chiapa.

Now, if Remington or Winchester came out and said the same thing ... I'd be worried.

Well, there are some definite advantages for manufacturers for inventory control purposes. If nobody kicks a fuss up about a minor player doing it, then the major players might be encouraged to follow suit.

 

[Uncle Buck]

We use RFID chips in the ear tags of cattle. It helps to keep records.

As the cattle walks by a scanner (Just a foot or so) mounted on a pole by the barn door, or a hand held scanner that needs to be pretty close to the animal (18" I think), the scanner records the animals number.

You can add details about that particular animal. i.e., What vaccinations it has received. Animal gave birth to animal number 123XYZ.

Yes, it is used for inventory control.

If Chiappa ever has a gun I am interested in, I will simply remove the chip. Easy enough. (And if by the time that happens, I become a conspiracy theorist, I will simply place the now removed chip in a police patrol car.)

 

[handgunfan101]

Kyjim please call Chiappa and just ask them.

 

[Sarge]

I'm not against this. I've got polymer guns in my evidence room, which have had the serial # plate dug out of them, and with an RFID chip we could at least figure out who they were stolen from.

 

[Bamashooter]

I guess its a good thing I think those guns are crap and have no interest in owning one.

 

[KyJim]

Kyjim please call Chiappa and just ask them.

Ask them what? I am aware you called them and they said it would be held in place with a single screw. That (1) confirms their intent and (2) contradicts their apparent press release. Perhaps I'll get a chance to call next week and ask about that.

 

[JohnKSa]

That's what it took an unfunded hacker to do in 2005. With the inevitable increase in technology and miniaturization, that's bound to change.

There are fundamental physical limitations on the size of antennas that don't yield to miniaturization attempts. Laws of physics and all that. If you need extreme sensitivity you can either go with high power and/or large antennas or both. High power comes with other issues that make it impractical and the impracticality of large antennas is obvious.

I cited it as a source from a reputable journal to demonstrate the potential of even passive RFID technology.

It's only "long range" in the sense that the reader can be a fairly long distance (20 meters) from the RFID tags. In order to work, there must be a transmit node in very close proximity (3 feet) of the RFID tag. It's a very specialized application that is not at all an analog to the standard type of RFID tags.

But that doesn't make it easily removable in the sense that it's snip and toss as the "best practices" guide indicates.

It's easier than "snip and toss". Basically you just knock off the blob of hot glue with the chip. Very easy. Trust me on this, I've put on and taken off a LOT of hot glue blobs.

First, I did not say they secretly implanted a chip.

I objected to the use of the word "implant" at all since that's not what happened. "Implant" means to insert or embed surgically and primarily refers to putting something into a living creature and what they've done is just stick it on with hot glue in an area that can be easily accessed by any user/purchaser. Implant is a very inaccurate way to refer to what's happened.

What I said was that there is a concern (long range) that the government could track and gather information or to develop a reader to do an electronic pat down, even if it's not 50 or 60 feet away. There was the day that nobody thought infared, cell phone tracking, and other would be used by law enforcement.

Infrared & cell phone tracking are VERY different from this in any number of ways. What I'm telling you is that even if you're a user who chooses to leave the RFID tag in place (for whatever reason) there are physical limitations (limitations imposed by the laws of physics) on this technology that will not make it practical for doing any sort of secret electronic pat downs unless it's from only inches away.

And obviously, if you are concerned about such things you can VERY simply remove the tag immediately after purchasing the firearm.

I've been professionally involved with electronics and electronic communications for about 3 decades now, and what I'm telling you is that while there may be good reasons not to buy Chiappa firearms, this is not one of them.

 

[Skans]

Italy is not a free country - I wouldn't expect them to understand "freedom" and "privacy". There are so many good American made guns - who needs Chippa anyway!

 

[handgunfan101]

Kyjim, Intent is subjective. All i am saying is get together all of your questions and call. Im not saying what the limitations are of use i am just stated what i was told from the manufacturer and suppliers.

Please p.m. me after you make the call i am interested in seeing what they are telling you as apposed to what i was told. Maybe you are right who knows? but the more i look into it the more conflicting info i read.

As for why buy a Chiappa? they are amazing shooting guns. The recoil and accuracy of this gun is pretty good. accuracy is subjective to the shooter i know but there is 0 nose flip at all. the straight back recoil helps keep on target without having to reset your aim.

Everyone likes what they like. I am not a big fan of the S&W revolvers but that doesnt make them junk there are people who only buy S&W and for good reason. They are a quality firearm but i am not a fan of the feel as is several people,

 

[Hawg]

Chiappa makes some great black powder rifles and 92 Winchester clones.

 

[Uncle Buck]

Guys, I don't really think you are understanding what JohnKsa is saying. He mentions laws of physic and such.

The RFID chip being used to track a firearm after purchase, using a drive-by technology, or even satellite technology, would be like compressing liquid. Neither is possible.

Maybe in the future, when the RFID chip is redesigned to allow tracking from further distances, you'll have something to worry about. Right now, the technology is held up by the laws of physic.

If you do buy a gun with a RFID chip in it, send the chip to me. I will put it on one of the cows and when it goes to market we'll scare the bejeezus outta the folks in the packing plants.

"Roy, RFID Chip identifies Steer #76345 as current on all his shots and packing heat."

 

[Hawg]

If you do buy a gun with a RFID chip in it, send the chip to me. I will put it on one of the cows and when it goes to market we'll scare the bejeezus outta the folks in the packing plants.

"Roy, RFID Chip identifies Steer #76345 as current on all his shot and packing heat."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a5s5qGg01nE

 

[JohnKSa]

Maybe in the future, when the RFID chip is redesigned to allow tracking from further distances, you'll have something to worry about. Right now, the technology is held up by the laws of physic.

Correct. There's nothing preventing someone from coming up with RFID tags in the future that would be detectable by a practical detector from more than just a few inches, but the tiny ones available right now (that might raise any concerns about covert surveillance) are pretty limited for anything other than short-range inventory control.

When you add to that the fact that these are put where they can be easily removed and the manufacturer (according to the press release quoted) is openly admitting that they're in place and telling how to remove them, I think it's unwarranted to imply that this somehow reflects poorly on the company.

 

[KyJim]

The RFID chip being used to track a firearm after purchase, using a drive-by technology, or even satellite technology, would be like compressing liquid. Neither is possible.

Actually it is. The link I posted showed it was possible in 2005. Sure, it was a crude demonstration but that doesn't make it impossible. A passive chip is activated or "excited" by the reader.

In fact, I found a link to a commercially available hand-held passive RFID reader that can read chips up to 84 feet away. http://rfid.net/product-listing/reviews/176-csl-cs101-handheld-reader. I emphasize, however, that it is not necessarily long range reading that is a concern. It's the readers within, say 10 to 20 feet that can be used to electronically pat down a citizen. Sure, this is not even in its infancy yet, but I do believe it is a legitimate concern.

 

[Uncle Buck]

There is also a tag search function, which operates as a tag Geiger counter. The user enters an EPC code for a tag they want to find;

I guess you could find something in a midsize room, if you knew what the EPC code was.