Deputy Dog
New member
Would you pay alot less for Instruction by someone who has taken Instructor courses from big name schools, or would you rather pay the big bucks and get the same material?
DD
DD
Cheaper Instruction....
- Thread starter Deputy Dog
- Start date
My only wat was to pay for a less expensive instructor who has studied with some of the greats. In my case it was Dan Southard who is one of Mas Ayoob's Level 3 Instructors. He held a small class at Las Cruces 2 months ago. I'm waiting for him to get the OK at Ft. Bliss for civilians to attend as he sets up his military class there.
Then I'll attend one of Ayoob's classes.
Then I'll attend one of Ayoob's classes.
Half the time I think people train under the hollywood instructors just for bragging rights. This nonsense reached its pinnacle with all the Costa wannabees/copy cats recently.
Out here in AZ, one of the City Colleges offers Law Enforcement training, including firearms training. We can take 2 day AR, Pistol, and Shotgun courses for under $200. The instructors are "been there, done that" instructors with extensive Mil/LE credentials.
Unless you're paying for a really amazing facility, I don't see the value in helping a super star instructor's house payment. The basic drills and concepts are the same.
Out here in AZ, one of the City Colleges offers Law Enforcement training, including firearms training. We can take 2 day AR, Pistol, and Shotgun courses for under $200. The instructors are "been there, done that" instructors with extensive Mil/LE credentials.
Unless you're paying for a really amazing facility, I don't see the value in helping a super star instructor's house payment. The basic drills and concepts are the same.
I think if one is looking for in-expensive (notice I didnt say cheap) shooting instruction, you should give your State Rifle & Pistol Assn a look see. Most put on High Power and Bullseye Clinics at fairly reasonable or no cost, (I dont charge for my clinics). These are the same as the Small Arms Firing Schools new shooters fire before the Camp Perry matches.
I know, I'm gonna catch flak becauise HP and Bullseye isnt "tactical" but it will give you the basic fundementals you can carry forward for your so called tactical type matches.
I got my orginal LE firearms instructor from the FBI Firearms Instructor Developement Course, USAMU Sniper School, NRA LE Rifle Instructor's course, and the NG Coaches Clinic. I've coached NG Rifle and Pistol teams, composite and combat. Most of my 20 years in LE I was a LE Firearms instructor. I did the orginal rifle training for APDs SWAT (we called them CRT). I've taught Sniper Schools and Machine Gun Schools for the NG, Reg Army, & LE.
I don't say that to be bragging, but to point out, regardless how much training you get, you can still learn from HP & BE Clinics.
I have the back ground but I still learn something, or get something refreshed when I attend or put on a Clinic.
I should have the basics down, but still when you shoot combat at the Wilson Matches (NG Championships) you start out with a SAFS or Clinic. I still learn.
Go to the CMP Website, they list CMP Clubs, find the closest to you, contact them about a HP or Bullseye Clinic.
Everytime I get start getting sloppy with my combat style pistol shooting I shoot a Bullseye Match. It always improves my other pistol shooting.
Give it a shot, its cheap if not free, and you're gonna learn something, and dont sell the instructors short because they arent wll named national firearm instructors. Most if not all have Dist. Badges, See how many of your national well known instructors have earned all their leg points. You dont get distingushed without learning something along the way.
I know, I'm gonna catch flak becauise HP and Bullseye isnt "tactical" but it will give you the basic fundementals you can carry forward for your so called tactical type matches.
I got my orginal LE firearms instructor from the FBI Firearms Instructor Developement Course, USAMU Sniper School, NRA LE Rifle Instructor's course, and the NG Coaches Clinic. I've coached NG Rifle and Pistol teams, composite and combat. Most of my 20 years in LE I was a LE Firearms instructor. I did the orginal rifle training for APDs SWAT (we called them CRT). I've taught Sniper Schools and Machine Gun Schools for the NG, Reg Army, & LE.
I don't say that to be bragging, but to point out, regardless how much training you get, you can still learn from HP & BE Clinics.
I have the back ground but I still learn something, or get something refreshed when I attend or put on a Clinic.
I should have the basics down, but still when you shoot combat at the Wilson Matches (NG Championships) you start out with a SAFS or Clinic. I still learn.
Go to the CMP Website, they list CMP Clubs, find the closest to you, contact them about a HP or Bullseye Clinic.
Everytime I get start getting sloppy with my combat style pistol shooting I shoot a Bullseye Match. It always improves my other pistol shooting.
Give it a shot, its cheap if not free, and you're gonna learn something, and dont sell the instructors short because they arent wll named national firearm instructors. Most if not all have Dist. Badges, See how many of your national well known instructors have earned all their leg points. You dont get distingushed without learning something along the way.
Deputy Dog
New member
The reason why I posted this thread, was too find out why people dont sign up for courses offered by instuctors who are taught by the big name schools, and teach the same quality material that the big name schools teach. Usually the Certified Instructors teach somewhat of a better or more interesting class than the big schools, for 1/3 the price. So why do people feel they have to pay big dollars at the big name schools? The only thing I can think of, would be what someone already posted is, paying for the facility.
DD
DD
People still pay for the bragging rights in my opinion. I mean... We get the big time instructors out here in AZ all the time, and they put their classes on at the regular old LE and Public ranges all the time.
Now if you go to Gunsite or Thunder Ranch where they have dedicated private facilities, I can see paying the higher prices for instruction.
Now if you go to Gunsite or Thunder Ranch where they have dedicated private facilities, I can see paying the higher prices for instruction.
AcridSaint
New member
Some instructors are going to be better than others. It doesn't matter if you can pay for and "pass" an instructor's school course, you may not be as good at instruction as another individual. You may be better than the guy or gal who taught you to be an instructor - there's just no way to quantify that with a certificate.
The only way to ensure that you have a reasonable chance at getting a good instructor is by getting an instructor who has good reviews from other shooters and instructors. Some smaller/less expensive outfits have this, some don't. Unless I personally know someone who has gone to an instructor who I can't find good info on, I probably won't test the waters unless it's just material that I want to brush up or get a different perspective on.
There are some great affordable instructors out there. I have one in my neck of the woods who I am returning to in September. Does that mean I wouldn't want the opportunity to train with Clint Smith? Of course not, but it sure is a lot easier and cheaper to drive five hours and shoot reloads than it is to fly 9 hours and shoot copper.
The only way to ensure that you have a reasonable chance at getting a good instructor is by getting an instructor who has good reviews from other shooters and instructors. Some smaller/less expensive outfits have this, some don't. Unless I personally know someone who has gone to an instructor who I can't find good info on, I probably won't test the waters unless it's just material that I want to brush up or get a different perspective on.
There are some great affordable instructors out there. I have one in my neck of the woods who I am returning to in September. Does that mean I wouldn't want the opportunity to train with Clint Smith? Of course not, but it sure is a lot easier and cheaper to drive five hours and shoot reloads than it is to fly 9 hours and shoot copper.
"...Instructor courses from big name schools..." Whoopie! What other experience does he have? Teaching?
"...for 1/3 the price..." You get what you pay for. Mostly the name of the instructor. What matches has he won, etc.
"...becauise HP and Bullseye isnt "tactical"...I shoot a Bullseye Match..." None of the shooting games are in the least bit 'tactical'. They're shooting games and nothing more. Nothing whatever to do with reality. No 'power factor' in the real world.
It's amazing how many new shooters don't think Bullseye shooting matters. Don't know a single good IPSC/IDPA shooter who isn't a very good Bullseye shooter.
"...Massad Ayoob..." Top notch guy. Miculek is too. Nothing whatever to do with their talent though. It's about how they interact with us regular shooters. Aces, both of 'em.
"...for 1/3 the price..." You get what you pay for. Mostly the name of the instructor. What matches has he won, etc.
"...becauise HP and Bullseye isnt "tactical"...I shoot a Bullseye Match..." None of the shooting games are in the least bit 'tactical'. They're shooting games and nothing more. Nothing whatever to do with reality. No 'power factor' in the real world.
It's amazing how many new shooters don't think Bullseye shooting matters. Don't know a single good IPSC/IDPA shooter who isn't a very good Bullseye shooter.
"...Massad Ayoob..." Top notch guy. Miculek is too. Nothing whatever to do with their talent though. It's about how they interact with us regular shooters. Aces, both of 'em.
It's about reputation.
You may (and I have) found local trainers who are excellent communicators, have current skill sets and can run a safe dynamic range. But I did a lot of digging to turn them up, and weeded out a number of guys who'd been to big name schools and were now droning out material they had taken from that training, often incompletely understood, and charging for it. (One was even using the 'big name' school's handouts, copied with the letterhead changed!)
So you pay for the reputation and 'known quantity' that an established instructor represents. Sign up for a class from Gunsite, Thunder Ranch, Givens, Cain, Farnam, etc, and you KNOW you're not wasting time, money and ammo training with someone who's not up to speed.
Larry
You may (and I have) found local trainers who are excellent communicators, have current skill sets and can run a safe dynamic range. But I did a lot of digging to turn them up, and weeded out a number of guys who'd been to big name schools and were now droning out material they had taken from that training, often incompletely understood, and charging for it. (One was even using the 'big name' school's handouts, copied with the letterhead changed!)
So you pay for the reputation and 'known quantity' that an established instructor represents. Sign up for a class from Gunsite, Thunder Ranch, Givens, Cain, Farnam, etc, and you KNOW you're not wasting time, money and ammo training with someone who's not up to speed.
Larry
Having taught professionally (not gun related) for several years, I know that when I select a course, the most important criteria is first: his/her experience.
Classrooms are fine, . . . practical labs are fine, . . . scenario games and role playing are fine, . . . but if someone wants my money: I need to see experience first.
Secondly, I want to know his/her standing in the community that teaches the same or similar courses. Col. Pappy Boyington of WW2 fame was undoubtedly one of the finest fighter pilots we had, . . . but he could not teach from what I have read.
Plus, . . . we all know the old message game: everyone tells the person on their right about the message, . . . which when it gets back to the source, it is compared with the original message. Teaching is the same in many respects as the NEW instructor adds things that are more important to them, and less important (to them) items are dropped.
They can have gone to all of the finest schools, . . . but if that is all, . . . then we have a firearm instructor with no ability to test if the instruction is valid, . . . bummer.
May God bless,
Dwight
Classrooms are fine, . . . practical labs are fine, . . . scenario games and role playing are fine, . . . but if someone wants my money: I need to see experience first.
Secondly, I want to know his/her standing in the community that teaches the same or similar courses. Col. Pappy Boyington of WW2 fame was undoubtedly one of the finest fighter pilots we had, . . . but he could not teach from what I have read.
Plus, . . . we all know the old message game: everyone tells the person on their right about the message, . . . which when it gets back to the source, it is compared with the original message. Teaching is the same in many respects as the NEW instructor adds things that are more important to them, and less important (to them) items are dropped.
They can have gone to all of the finest schools, . . . but if that is all, . . . then we have a firearm instructor with no ability to test if the instruction is valid, . . . bummer.
May God bless,
Dwight
I do wonder about these schools.
What is the criteria to be an instructor?
Who decides what class, and lab material is to be covered?
I notice that different trainers have different scools of thought. Who decides what is right?
What is a reasonable cost for some professional training?
What makes one instructor better than the next?
I have read some of the most practical advice from poster's with no fantactical experience, and from guys, n gals with real world military, and police experience. None of them instructors.
My friends and I have come up with a kind of an inexpensive soloution. We a very diverse group, have come up with our own training regimen. Based on our collective experiences, and anecdotal information.
Maybe I'm just cheap... But I'd rather take the time to read the experiences, and opinions of some 22 year old just back from his second tour in the sand box.... Than to pay someone several hundreds of dollars to tell me how I'm hitting the bull's eye wrong.
Glenn D.
What is the criteria to be an instructor?
Who decides what class, and lab material is to be covered?
I notice that different trainers have different scools of thought. Who decides what is right?
What is a reasonable cost for some professional training?
What makes one instructor better than the next?
I have read some of the most practical advice from poster's with no fantactical experience, and from guys, n gals with real world military, and police experience. None of them instructors.
My friends and I have come up with a kind of an inexpensive soloution. We a very diverse group, have come up with our own training regimen. Based on our collective experiences, and anecdotal information.
Maybe I'm just cheap... But I'd rather take the time to read the experiences, and opinions of some 22 year old just back from his second tour in the sand box.... Than to pay someone several hundreds of dollars to tell me how I'm hitting the bull's eye wrong.
Glenn D.
AcridSaint
New member
I'd suggest checking out an affordable well-reviewed school before deciding that you're simply paying someone to tell you how you're hitting the bullseye wrong. Even if you don't think their experience is superior, having access to someone with teaching expertise and a dynamic range to explore techniques is worth a few bucks.
It's continuing education...
Continuing education is valuable in any pursuit that requires a high level of skill. Making it affordable is important. This was true in my military career and remains true in my second career as a health care provider.
Next month I'm going to take a close combat handgun course from one of Gabe Suarez's stringers. I'm doing this because it's local and cheap. With gas for the car I expect to pay under $300 for a weekend course. The word from my circle of gun people is that the instructor is a good guy, but not somebody who has "seen the elephant." My biggest concern will be safety (mine). If it appears that the guy can't run a safe, dynamic, hot range, I'm outta there. That said, anything I can learn and get refreshed on will be money well spent. The plan is to retain anything new, good and sensible and ignore any stupid, merely trendy stuff that might be presented.
Big name schools? Sure. I'm planning on taking a Thunder Ranch course a year from now just to drink from the well and see what high-end training at a dedicated facility is like. But, with air fare, lodging, food, tuition and "green ammo" it's going to be at least 5-6 times more expensive.
It's all good.
Continuing education is valuable in any pursuit that requires a high level of skill. Making it affordable is important. This was true in my military career and remains true in my second career as a health care provider.
Next month I'm going to take a close combat handgun course from one of Gabe Suarez's stringers. I'm doing this because it's local and cheap. With gas for the car I expect to pay under $300 for a weekend course. The word from my circle of gun people is that the instructor is a good guy, but not somebody who has "seen the elephant." My biggest concern will be safety (mine). If it appears that the guy can't run a safe, dynamic, hot range, I'm outta there. That said, anything I can learn and get refreshed on will be money well spent. The plan is to retain anything new, good and sensible and ignore any stupid, merely trendy stuff that might be presented.
Big name schools? Sure. I'm planning on taking a Thunder Ranch course a year from now just to drink from the well and see what high-end training at a dedicated facility is like. But, with air fare, lodging, food, tuition and "green ammo" it's going to be at least 5-6 times more expensive.
It's all good.
I could never afford or get the time off to go to TR or Gunsite, so for 20 or so years I did VHS, DVD's and books for learning.
In the last 4 years, there has been a local boom on training in my immediate area. Alabama Defensive Pistol Academy (Matt Sims), Shootrite Academy (Tiger Mckee) and Randy Harris (Suarez International) are all within easy driving distance of me. Gabe Suarez has also been coming locally about once a year.
I'll say that the classes (5) I've taken over the last 3 years has taught me quite a bit. I wish I had known the material during the time I was trying to teach myself through the various media. It would have saved me a lot of money in the long run.
In the last 4 years, there has been a local boom on training in my immediate area. Alabama Defensive Pistol Academy (Matt Sims), Shootrite Academy (Tiger Mckee) and Randy Harris (Suarez International) are all within easy driving distance of me. Gabe Suarez has also been coming locally about once a year.
I'll say that the classes (5) I've taken over the last 3 years has taught me quite a bit. I wish I had known the material during the time I was trying to teach myself through the various media. It would have saved me a lot of money in the long run.
Al Thompson
Staff Alumnus
Agree with smince completely. I took a three day course with Tiger McKee and learned bunches. I picked up two techniques that even if that was all I learned, the course was a success. And he has a great range!
Deputy Dog
New member
I read alot of Forum members from different forums in the area where I live talking about how they want to take some Personal Protection Courses. Yet when you offer to teach them a course at 1/3 the cost of the big schools and they are getting the same material being taught as the big schools, you would think it was a no brainer. Especially if the Instructor has over 28 years of experience under his belt with firearms and over 14 years experiance teaching Basic Safety as well as Personal Protection and LEO's. I dont have a book published, nor am I a famous LEO. What I do have is over 13 years experience in the Armed Proffessional field. Do I know everything there is to know about firearms? Nope! Who does though? I get asked to give some references of the LEO's I have taught, and when I say no do to sworn privacey. People think I am making the stuff up.
How are people going to know what people can do and or teach, unless you give them a chance? Just my .02.
Maybe I should go to Front Sight or Massad's School, I guess Sig Sauer Academy and the S&W Academy arent good enough. OOH! OOH! maybe I'll go down to Black water and spend my lifes savings to become recognized as an Instructor. In all the years I have been carrying a firearm for work related and Personal Protection, I have had to draw and present my firearm about a Dozen times, never having to pull the trigger ought to speak for itself.
DD
How are people going to know what people can do and or teach, unless you give them a chance? Just my .02.
Maybe I should go to Front Sight or Massad's School, I guess Sig Sauer Academy and the S&W Academy arent good enough. OOH! OOH! maybe I'll go down to Black water and spend my lifes savings to become recognized as an Instructor. In all the years I have been carrying a firearm for work related and Personal Protection, I have had to draw and present my firearm about a Dozen times, never having to pull the trigger ought to speak for itself.
DD
I think the majority is just "Talk". Lot's of people say they want to this or that, but never follow through.
I was an NRA certified Personal Protection instructor for a while in the early 90's. I think I taught a grand total of 10 people during my stint.
Some of it stems from the "I'm an American, by God, and I don't need no training to own a gun" attitude.
Some of it is $$$. Even at 1/3 the cost, plinking at paper at the local chert pit is still cheaper than professional training.
Some of it is the same attitude that allows a person shoot a cylinder or two through their j-frame, stick it in their pocket, and pretend they are prepared. "It won't happen to me, so why spend the money for something a cop or security would need, but not an everyday person?"
Some of it is ego. People don't want to find out they aren't as good as they imagine themselves to be. Shooting in a class or competition might cause them to lose a little face.
Maybe a little of all the above. I'm sure there are other factors.
I have been to many of the big name instructor courses. I even teach classes. Am I as good of an instructor as the big name guys? Not even close. The guys who teach full time for a living have the classes down pat. I can teach private classes very well. The trick is being able to teach 15 people of varying skill levels at once. That ability only comes with teaching experience. Keep in mind that just because someone has credentials from a school, it doesn't mean that they absorb all the doctrine from that school. I typically pick up one or two tiny aspects from a class and the rest I don't use because I know what works for me. You can also take classes from guys with 30yrs law enforcement or military experience. That doesn't mean they can teach. I would say that the best instruction comes from the guys who are good enough to make a living at it on the national/global level.
Shane Tuttle
Staff
Deputy Dog said:
Ever seen the movie Multiplicity with Michal Keaten and Andie McDowell? Sometimes, when you make a copy of a copy, you don't exactly get the same result. If your theory was all there was to it, then why don't we have a bunch of automated robots teaching the material to our public schools? It has to do with the quality of proven instruction. When I went to aviation maintenance school, some of my classes were assigned to the same instructor. One class he was magnificant, the other class he taught was mediocre. Sometimes, the 1/3 cost you provide is still quite a chunk of change for some and maybe they'd rather risk spending more of their hard earned money for surefire quality instruction.
On another note, I received top notch training from Randy Cain. He's a disciple of the late Jeff Cooper, Louis Awerbuck, Steve Tarani, and many others. He also taught at Gunsite with some of the aforementioned. Unfortunately, he isn't well known in the training circuit. Mainly, IMO, is he doesn't seek the fame. But the cost was a fraction of what it would be to go to Gunsite and receive the same training.