CCW? What would you do..?

[Cedric]

I'm needing some input on a final choice in a CCW, as I'm moving to a MUCH more CCW friendly state. Heck anything's more friendly than Maryland..

The narrowed contenders are:
1) Kimber Pro-series or compact-series
2) Kahr K9/40 elite
3) Wilson KZ45 compact
4) HK 9/40C

Things to keep in mind are:
a) I'm 6'3", 200# for concealability's sake.
b) Need a piece that will work for HOT summer carry as well as winter
c) Spending limit: $1000 (slightly flexible as evidenced by #3 above)
* I need to save -some- money for a good holster/ammo/training!
d) I have a full CZ75 now for range/HD
e) I don't reload (not enough time with work/family time)
f) Need to be able to spend a good amount of range time comfortably
(so 2oz .357 revolvers are out)
g) Glocks are out - I've tried hard and they don't fit my hand in any flavor
H) Oh yeah, I've never carried, so what's common knowledge about concealability
to people that do it all the time may not be to me.

This is a great forum, and I appreciate as much input on my options and others I may not have thought of. Thanks in advance for getting through this long post, and I'm looking forward to a good discussion of CCW (I've already read so many posts on so many forums on close-but-not-quite topics, my head's spinning!)

Regards,
Cedric

 

[Aion]

My vote would be for a full-sized, all-steel Kimber. Great control, accuracy, quality and reliability, and with a good holster -- I use a Milt Sparks Versa Max II IWB for my Custom Classic Stainless II -- you can carry all day and not feel uncomfortable. I can also put it in the inside (breast) pocket of my leather jacket and it's like a shoulder holster only more comfortable. A smaller gun would be harder to get out in a hurry.

I don't like Kahrs (and won't support the Moonies), the HK is high quality but not my taste, and I'm darned if I can see what you get for $500 or so extra for a Wilson over a Kimber when they're practically the same gun.

On the "unofficial Kimber forum" we had a thread on "What would you use if you could only have one gun?" -- my answer, and I wasn't the only one, was my Kimber.

All standard disclaimers apply...

- Aion

 

[M1911]

I usually carry my Kimber Compact. I'm a fair bit smaller than you (5' 9" 160 lbs). Easier for me to carry than a full size govt model.

M1911

 

[RikWriter]

Go with the Kimber Compact Stainless Aluminum, or, if you think you can manage the size, a full-size CDP.

 

[harrydog]

My vote would be the Kahr. You'll be happy with it. I get sick of hearing the "Moonies" thing. What a crock of...
My second choice would be the HK USP Compact or even fullsize if you don't mind the size.
Also, some of the SIG models would be an excellent choice as well, but apparently you've already eliminated them for some reason.

 

[Mikul]

I have nearly the same dimensions as you. I carry the H&K USP9c all year round without any troubles. It's a great gun, but I wouldn't carry it if I were uncomfortable with cocked and locked. The DA trigger is lousy. It's useful if you ever need a second strike, but I won't use it otherwise. You'll find that the USPs felt recoil is LESS than your CZ. I would have thought with the extra weight of the CZ that it would absorb more recoil, but I guess the recoil bushing and plastic frame of the USP make a bigger difference.

My second carry gun is a CZ75b which carries just fine.

I was considering a Kimber, but I hate the eight round capacity and went with the CZ and it's sixteen round capacity. Check out the H&K USP 45c. That was my second choice even though it only has a nine round capacity while a full-size USP will give you eleven.

The price of the Wilson is insane.

The Kahrs are good guns, but a notch below the Kimber, H&K, and your CZ.

 

[Cedric]

Harrydog:
The sigs I eliminated were primarily the 239 (too small in the hand and the trigger reach is too short, esp. in SA mode). The 228/9 are a great fit for my hand, esp. with a hogue rubber grip. However, the grip thickness and size makes it a tough carry (in my non-existant experience)


Also, I'm trying to get away from a DA/SA transition for my defensive pistol. Either DA or SA throughout.

It'd be much easier to make up my mind if I could find the pistols in question to shoot at a local range. I've shot the K40 (beat up the web of my hand after 50 rounds), but the K9 or smaller 1911s... no such luck.

Anyone in the DC/MD area that has a K9 or smaller 1911 that would be willing to go to the range with me sometime? The range rentals are REALLY limited here.

Regards,
Cedric

 

[youngun]

I simply love my Kimber steel compact.
As far as saving money, do yourself a favor and look at Alessi's Watch Six Dual Talon, $60 or $65 for a sweet IWB leather holster. It and a $15 belt from the mall hold my piece well.

Since it sounds like you're wanting to shoot it quite a bit, consider getting the steel frame over the aluminum.
Those ounces just don't matter when you're 200 lbs!

Alot of folks love their SIG's and H&K's, but there's nothing like a crisp 1911 trigger.
Find a used Kimber or Springfield, hand it to a 'smith for a $150 reliability job and go.

As far as common knowledge goes, not sure which part of CC you're referring, but the key is to trust your rig and relax, remember it's your right to sovereignity. (And bend at the knees!)

y

 

[M1911]

Cedric:

I have medium sized hands. The Sig P239 fits me fine, so it sounds as though your hands are larger than mine. I think that you might be able to get Sig to install a long trigger.

I have a K40 and I agree that it beats up the web of my hand. I've added a Harrts recoil reducer. That, plus a really tight grip, allows me to shoot about 70 rounds at a time. Not fun, but doable.

The K9 has much less felt recoil, even with 115 gr +p+. My steel Kimber Compact also has little felt recoil. My aluminum Kimber Compact has more recoil than the steel one, but still less than the K40. I recommend the steel compact over the aluminum, because the steel frame will last forever. You may well wear out the aluminum frame if you shoot it a lot.

M1911

 

[Cedric]

Thanks for your input so far!

M1911: When you comment on the recoil of your pistols, is that the "kick" and pressure against the hand, or muzzle flip? I'm curious how those pistols, in decidedly different calibers and weights stack up muzzle flip/controlability wise. You seem to be in a unique position of owning/having shot almost everything that I'm considering!

Youngun: Concerning my lack of concealed carry knowledge --I'm not sure with my frame/body habitus, needing a hot weather carry pistol, what can I conceal easily? By easily, I mean obviously with a tshirt and overshirt untucked/unbuttoned "Havana" shirt I could carry just about anything. But what about khakis and a bloused golf shirt/buttoned shirt, or just an untucked t-shirt? Is the Kahr or a compact .45 signifcantly more concealable than a Commander sized pistol?

Being from Maryland, the land of no-carry, meeting and talking with people first hand, seeing their carry rigs, perhaps even trying on their rigs, and discussing the trials and tribulations of CC is just not possible.

I wish there were sites that showed more pictures of what pistol/holster combos look like with proper cover garments, tucked or untucked. THAT would be a really nice resource!

All of these pistols are quite expensive, and I'd hate to have to lose a bunch of money on a resell because I made a poor choice. I've heard the addage many times here to carry the largest pistol in the largest caliber that you can conceal and shoot well. What I'm trying to glean from y'all is, what is that??

Regards,
Cedric

 

[blades67]

With a good quality holster and belt you could carry that CZ75 all day long. I'm about 5'8" and 155# and I carry a SIG Sauer P220 almost all the time, even in the Arizona summer heat.

If the P228 feels good in your hands, but you feel that the double stack grip is too fat for your liking, try a P225 or a P245. If you want DAO, SIG Arms will sell you one, or you can convert a DA/SA to DAO by changing the hammer and removing the decocking lever. Just some more options for you.

 

[val7]

Concealed Carry

Hey Cedric, I'm an FFL dealer in Florida. I am from Maryland and lived there 25 years. Your lucky to be leaving. Its one of the top worse states for anything to do with guns but no state shows more ignorance than Massachussets.
I'd be happy to fix you up and get you a great deal on your new carry gun. I can think of lpots of good all around choices for carry such as a Sig P 239 40 S&W, One of the Kahr's or any of the various 1911's and the Kimbers.Drop me a line and I'd be happy to help you or anyone else. Thanks, Val val7@tampabay.rr.com

 

[Eric Larsen]

Rough choice...all are top of the line. My choices would be the Kahr K series or the HK USPC...either caliber is fine. I have a K40 as my primary carry.
I think your choice of gun will have to be determined by what you prefer....s/a or dao. Very different trigger styles..but both are great given what you want.
Do a search on CCW or Concealed Carry on TFL and you will get plenty of good info on carrying ....its all good.
Shoot well

 

[youngun]

--"But what about khakis and a bloused golf shirt/buttoned shirt, or just an untucked t-shirt? Is the Kahr or a compact .45 signifcantly more concealable than a Commander sized pistol? [...]
"I wish there were sites that showed more pictures of what pistol/holster combos look like with proper cover garments, tucked or untucked. THAT would be a really nice resource!"--

Not that I have all that much experience, but it seems to me there's no "yes and no."
The bigger the gun, the more likely it'll "print."
You can conceal anything you want to, it's just that you gradually get deeper into restricting your movements/fashion options.
At just what point on this curve the restrictions outweigh the benefits (e.g., more bullets, etc.) is personal.

The Kahr is significantly smaller than a Commander, so, 'yeah, it's more concealable. (But does the Khar have 9 rounds of .45 in it?)
The difference between a Commander and Compact 1911-pattern is about 1/4" sideways in the butt of the gun: not very significant in my opinion, but it is something.
Any 1911 is going to be real slim, which equals easy-to-hide.

As far as seeing what the various holsters look like when they're bloused, just go to the mall and look around.



I've tried the blouse thing; makes me too nervous.
I go untucked and relaxed. If I have to tuck, I've got a ...
wait a minute, I NEVER have to tuck.
heh!

 

[GeorgeH]

Buy a small pocket back-up pistol first. Use that to get into the habit of carring a concealed firearm. Then evolve into your primary carry gun. A big mistake of those new to concealed carry is buying too much gun: a gun that you want to carry but after awhile gets deleated to the glove box or gun safe. Once your habit of carring is established, it will be easy to find your nect carry piece.

 

[Snowdog]

I would also recommend the K9 if it fits you well.
I'm only 5'10 and have carried mine year-round with no problems for 3 years (before I purchased my P32 and cheated in the summer months). My electoless K9 is still my primary CCW handgun.

The Kahrs are good guns, but a notch below the Kimber, H&K, and your CZ

Having a Kimber Custom Classic and having had a CZ75, I couldn't disagree more. These are indeed superb handguns, but I cannot for the life of me see how they could be viewed as being even remotely superior to the steel framed Kahrs.
Fit and finish, quality of materials and design are all easily "on-par" with those mentioned.

 

[M1911]

Cedric:

The Kahr pistols have a very low bore axis, so there isn't much muzzle flip. The discomfort that I get from the K40 is an impact into the web of my hand. Holding it very tightly seems to reduce that. In contrast, I don't get the same feeling in the K9, even though the geometry of the gun is almost identical.

The P239 has a much higher bore axis. There is some kick with the P239 .40, but it is more comfortable to shoot than the K40. However, as a result of that high bore axis, you do get much more muzzle rise. The P239 also feels top heavy in my hands. The K9/k40 do not feel top heavy.

My Kimber Compact has little muzzle flip and is comfortable to shoot. In general, I tend to find .45 ACP more comfortable to shoot than .40 S&W. Of course, the all steel Kimber Compact is not a light gun. Of the K9, K40, P239, and Kimber Compact, I much prefer the Kimber Compact. YMMV.

M1911

 

[22lovr]

Congratulations on your good fortune!

Cedric: From the news and hearsay oozing out of Maryland, good place to be far away from. Good Grief, what a bunch of legislative loonies!

I can only tell you of my own experience:

I live near Atlanta so much of the season is spent in cutoff pants and tee shirts. I have opted for pocket carry for that reason.
My son, on the other hand, carries an H&K .40 cal USP compact in an Uncle Mike's Sidekick IWB holster. He has found the gun too big to carry everywhere.

Me? I'm a die-hard front-pocket carry guy. I've comfortably carried a Kel-Tec P11, Beretta Mod 21, Taurus Mod 85, Kel-Tec P32, and my current favorite is a Smith and Wesson Mod 638 "Bodyguard." Of course, pocket carry is more convenient and concealable, but limits you to whatever fits in your pocket.

If you can conceal a Kimber Compact in an IWB or paddle holster, I'd opt for that. I've never fired a Kimber but I've heard more than once that the Kimber Compact is an AWESOME gun.

Recoil? My son's H&K .40 cal USP compact has plenty of it, mostly the "up" variety. All of the .45's I've ever shot seem to have the recoil come more straight back.

It has been my experience that I desire smaller/lighter over the years rather than bigger/heavier. Again, it's a personal preference to pocket carry over a belt holster or IWB.

I also want something very quick and simple for reacting in a self-defense situation, so I prefer that no-brainer "pull da trigger, hear da bang." No de-cockers, safeties, or other encumberances to impede my draw/acquire/fire speed.

Finally, here's some good advice from someone who has learned from bitter experience. Don't flinch when you buy your defensive handgun; buy the best gun you can afford and be done with it.

Have fun with that grand, I'm sure you will!

 

[Marcus]

I know this isn`t one of the choices but it seems so obvious I have to mention it anyway. You already have a CZ-75B? Buy a CZ-75-PCR compact for your carry gun. It`s slightly larger than the Kahrs but the same size as the rest. Lightweight alloy frame,lots of nice features and you can use hi caps from the CZ-75B in both guns. Further your HD/range and carry guns will share common most of their characteristics so practice with one carrys directly over to the other. Personally I carry my full sized CZ-75B IWB in a good holster with a good belt in any weather with no problems, just an untucked decent weight T-shirt works fine for me. I`m your height just little heavier. Marcus

 

[Cedric]

The PCR is definately a good gun, no bones about it. It fits my hand like a glove, and if it shoots anything like my 75B, it's a keeper.

But (there's always a but), the initial trigger reach for a DA is a bit long for a defensive piece (personal preference), I don't like the sight picture that much (changing sights on my 75B soon), and replacements sights aren't available for the PCR. The P01 on the other hand...

If I were to look at this size in a DA/SA I'd probably consider the HK compact or SIG 228 at this time.

---

Though I love the 1911 platform, another concern is that of cost. Not so much of the pistol, heck a few thousand rounds takes care of that, but of shooting the thing. I plan on doing a lot of range time to improve my skills, especially with the pistol I may trust my life to some day, and the time involved in reloading for me right now is prohibitive. The ammo cost difference (9mm to 45) adds up pretty fast... but then again, how fast do I really go through 1000 rounds?

Still trying to find a place to do a 'trial by fire' with these pistols, all puns intended.

The jury's still out, and advice is ALWAYS welcome!

Right now the Kimber's got a slight lead on the Kahr...

Regards,
Cedric