CCW Potential Problem?

[osallent]

Right now chances are that if you need to defend yourself/another with deadly force, you and the bad guy are probably the only ones with deadly weapons (this might be more true in some parts of the country than others). However, as the popularity of concealed carry increases, and more people arm themselves, does it not increase the chance of a law abiding citizen shooting another by accident?

Here is the scenario I had in mind. Bad guy pulls a gun or knife on a citizen. Citizen pulls out gun and shoots bad guy. Another CCW holder hears a shot, turns around to see a guy with a gun and another guy on the floor (hard to tell if he is armed or not in the heat of the moment) and takes out his own gun and shoots citizen #1 in the back. Another CCW holder gets to the scene and things repeat themselves, etc.

Has anyone like that happened in real life that you know of? How realistically do you think it is for you to worry about that? If you were in the position of the second CCW carrier, do you think you would have shot the first one thinking he was the bad guy?

Am sorry for the hypos, but this is something I have thought of on a few occasions since I am also a CCW holder.

 

[jcsturgeon]

The CCW holder who shoots his fellow CCW holder in the back loses his gun and spends several years in prison.

I mean, if you try and be John Wayne, fly around a corner and kill a fellow human being while using the critical reasoning of a fruit fly then you'd clearly be in the wrong. There should be a command to drop the weapon, unless you're threatened by the first man in the scenario there's NO WAY you could possibly justify being in fear for your life.

 

[osallent]

I agree with you, but still, I do worry about the John Wayne types. I'll give you an example of something that happened in my town in Florida:

Two men got into an argument at the 10 items or less checkout line in a store because one of them had 11 items. The younger man told the older man: "Step outside and I'll kick your butt." The older man, a CCW carrier, took out his gun there in line and shot and killed the younger man.

 

[jcsturgeon]

I hope the older fellow went to jail for the rest of his life.

 

[AH.74]

Am sorry for the hypos, but this is something I have thought of on a few occasions since I am also a CCW holder.

In your training did you go over the aspect of the need to know the situation, and that not everything is as it first appears? You can't afford to act too quickly, and without knowing what is really taking place.

 

[mete]

I remember a case where a plainclothes cop was killed .IIRC she didn't immediately respond [dropping the gun etc ] when challenged by a uniformed cop. Police proceedure was changed to help prevent this problem.
Don't make assumptions .Many an undercover cop dresses like the BGs and it may be hard to tell .They sometimes wear the 'color of the day' to make them more obvious to other cops in the operation.
Don't jump in to problems - stop , take a big breath and observe and sort out things first.

 

[osallent]

In your training did you go over the aspect of the need to know the situation, and that not everything is as it first appears? You can't afford to act too quickly, and without knowing what is really taking place.

Believe it or not, all that I needed to do in order to get a CCW permit in Florida was to pay a gun shop owner who was certified a total of $75. He took a group of us to a range, had us shoot 50 rounds of ammo, and he gave us a certificate. No more training than that, he didn't even talk about the laws.

I sent the certificate with the form (saying that I have no criminal records) to the state, and I got my CCW in 6 weeks. It was really that easy to get a CCW license in Florida. No requirement to actually seat through any relevant training or to really know what the laws are. Now that's really scary!!!!

 

[robbalot]

Anybody who wants to carry a firearm has the responsibility to seek out, complete and fully understand at least some kind of realistic training. Owning a firearm doesn't qualify a person to carry it in a loaded and ready condition in a public place.

The example of the ccw shooting the kid in the checkout line is just ridiculous, that's a story of mental deficiency or of fear/anger overriding reason. Hope they locked that SOB up forever.

 

[Technosavant]

Any CCW holder who just jumps into a situation he/she happens upon is a complete fool. I'm not saying that they aren't out there, but the chances of any of us doing that are incredibly slim.

If you see a situation developing and it doesn't involve you, you're far better off calling the police. The only exception might possibly be the extremely and super-rare incidents where there's no doubt; somebody shooting at a uniformed police officer, somebody clearly abducting a child with the mother standing by and screaming for help, etc. If you see two regular folks going at it, best to get behind cover and use the phone.

 

[ChuckS]

ossalent wrote

does it not increase the chance of a law abiding citizen shooting another by accident?

Yes. But not as much as you'd think. Besides, I'd be more worried that a LEO would mistake me as a badguy.

Consider this information:
Newsweek’s columnist George F. Will reported in 1993 that “Only 2% of civilian shootings involve an innocent person mistakenly identified as a criminal. The ‘error rate’ for the police, however, was 11%, more than five times as high.”

 

[Kreyzhorse]

I suppose that it is possible but I would think that the chance of being shot by another CCW holder is very, very remote.

Additionally, from a legal aspect, I'd have to feel my life was in danger as would most of us. Shooting a guy in the back indicates that it wasn't a self defense shooting.

I just don't see a lot of CCW holders pulling a Rambo and blindly shooting into a situation that they aren't sure exactly what is going on. To an extent, the Brady Campaign predicted that blood would run in the streets if CCW licenses were issued and that just hasn't happened.

 

[ronto]

You, as a CCW holder, are NOT a Junior LEO.

I was taught in the CCW class that there are 3 things to do before pulling the trigger on another human being:
(1) Think
(2) Think
(3) And most importantly, T-H-I-N-K again.
If there is ANY available alternative, take it.

 

[madmo44mag]

I MHO if you hold a CCW you are obligated to know and understand the laws of you state.
You are obligated to become proficient with your firearm.
You are obligated to use common sense and good judgment.
Carrying a firearm is a serious decision not to be taken lightly.
This may sound kinda harsh but holding a CCW and carrying is serious.

 

[mes227]

Here is the scenario I had in mind. Bad guy pulls a gun or knife on a citizen. Citizen pulls out gun and shoots bad guy. Another CCW holder hears a shot, turns around to see a guy with a gun and another guy on the floor (hard to tell if he is armed or not in the heat of the moment) and takes out his own gun and shoots citizen #1 in the back. Another CCW holder gets to the scene and things repeat themselves, etc.

In which case the 2nd (and 3rd, etc) CCW deserves serious prison time! Just like they teach hunters "know your target" -- if you pull a gun with the intention of shooting (and thus killing) a human you'd better know what the heck you're doing! And I think sentence enhancement is appropriate because in my world stupidity is also a crime.

 

[MTT TL]

Right now chances are that if you need to defend yourself/another with deadly force, you and the bad guy are probably the only ones with deadly weapons (this might be more true in some parts of the country than others). However, as the popularity of concealed carry increases, and more people arm themselves, does it not increase the chance of a law abiding citizen shooting another by accident?

Kind of like more guns increase gun crimes, more guns increase accidental shootings also.

However, during the Tyler Courthouse shooting there were dozens of shooters including civilians with CHLs and police who engaged the active shooter and no one was killed by friendly fire. Sometimes the threat is easy to identify (mad dog killer with AK and body armor) and sometimes not so much. The best we can do is get the best training we can. It helps to get to know the police in your town so that they know ho you are in case bad things start to happen. But there are no guarantees.

Me I see it as one of those odds steeply impossible against that someone will show up to aid me as I am being attacked and we accidentally shoot each other. Or I aiding them. So I guess I will worry about it when it happens.

 

[osallent]

Maybe if the CCW process here in Florida was a little more educational, I'd feel better and I wouldn't have this concern. Look, am not talking about making it harder, because that's not what I want. But a little gun safety class for (2 hours) or maybe a quick 30 minute session where they explain the laws and give you a copy for your own personal review would have been nice.

However, I paid $75 bucks to a CCW certified instructor just to empty 50 rounds that I had to buy from a gun he provided, and that was literally it!!! I have trained myself since then on the laws, gun safety, situation awareness, etc. But it's all been up to me.

If someone else who took my class with the instructor also got their permit, and if they've never bothered to train themselves and learn the laws, it is just a matter of time before they shoot someone in violation of Florida law, get charged, and make us all look bad.:barf:

Maybe I just worry too much, and I need to go have a drink, smoke a cigar, and quit worrying about it. What do you think?

 

[jrinne0430]

If you were in the position of the second CCW carrier, do you think you would have shot the first one thinking he was the bad guy?

Definitly not unless he tried to engage me. I would not have drawn my weapon unless he was engaging me...would have gotten out of the area asap then call the police.

 

[Jim March]

Verbal challenges are your friend. So is "position sul" or some variant of it.

Position sul should be in everybody's toolbox. It's a way of having a gun out while presenting the LEAST possible threat to others. It looks very professional and offers a signal to responding cops or other CCWers that you're not a goblin. It's for use when things are still too hot to safely re-holster but it's not an immediate fire situation.

Source:

http://www.themartialist.com/0104/suarez.htm

I've come to the opinion that position sul (meaning "south") is probably about the best "good guy with a gun" signal we have available. After firing, if no more shots are going to be directed at that target, one should drop back to sul to do the 360deg. check for additional possible threats. It is at this moment one is most vulnerable to "friendly" fire and with any luck, a plainclothes cop or the like will see that stance while you look around and realize you're not a garden-variety thug.

It's not the "whole solution" but it should help some.

 

[Skadoosh]

If I see a person shoot someone else, I wont be able to make a reasonable conclusion unless I am able to see and determine whether that person getting shot at was a threat to the shooter or not. Your scenario does not describe that happening.

I wont be shooting at anyone unless I am being personally threatened with death or bodily harm or can make a reasonable assumption that my use of deadly force will stop prevent someone else from being killed or severely harmed...

 

[Don H]

If someone else who took my class with the instructor also got their permit, and if they've never bothered to train themselves and learn the laws, it is just a matter of time before they shoot someone in violation of Florida law, get charged, and make us all look bad.

After perusing the FL laws regarding CCW permits, it appears that all that is required in the way of a training requirement if that the applicant must demonstrate "competence with a firearm". Given that this is correct and that Florida has been issuing permits since 1987, is there a demonstrable problem with with permit holders 'shooting someone in violation of Florida law, getting charged, and making us all look bad'? If not, then given the following statement

I'd feel better and I wouldn't have this concern.

it's all about feelings and not factual concerns. Which brings up the question of whether laws should be enacted to assuage people's feelings rather than to address actual issues or problems? If so, then shouldn't the feelings of those who feel that only those in the military or law enforcement should be armed be taken into consideration and civilian ownership of firearms be prohibited? After all, if we're going to legislate on the basis of feelings....