CCI primer misfire issue

[L. Boscoe]

I loaded some 45acp with 200 gr plated Berry's bullets, 4.5 gr of 231, and
new to me CCI Large pistol primers.
The rounds fired just fine in my CZ 97, and about 40 rds in a new compact
SAR K2-45 I just got, but two rounds failed to detonate, showing a small
dent in the primer-these were not in sequence, but about 20 rounds were fired
between each misfire.
Two questions: is it safe to put these in a chamber and try to fire them again?
and 2nd: Is this due to the new SAR not being broken in or poorly lubricated.
The pistol was brand new.
This batch of rounds was loaded tuesday, almost 150 fired as expected.

 

[44 AMP]

If the primer is fully seated then a small dent is due to a gun issue. Should be safe to try popping them off a second time. They could very well fire.

I couple of light primer hits in a brand new gun is most likely due to not properly cleaned/lubed or just not broken in, so things are still rough and might drag.

If it happens consistently, then you have a gun issue that needs to be addressed.

 

[9MMand223only]

If its a light primer strike, this is likely due to 2 possible issues.

1) the primer was not fully seated and moved inwards when struck, taking away force, causing light strike.
2) the bullet itself was BARELY not fully in chamber, and when the primer was struck, the bullet moved forward barely, taking away force, causing light strike. This is an issue in some guns.

This could be caused by improper sizing of brass, or reloaded brass that is slightly bulged at rear, causing some resistance when loaded. Gun goes into battery so it will fire, but its BARELY not all the way in.

 

[Woody'sDad]

+1 on it being a gun issue as 44AMP replied-if your reloading technique was consistent AND you fully seated the primers to .004" below flush then it was a light primer strike-either try it again in the same gun or use another one (You do have more than 1 45 ?-LOL)
Could it be improper sizing-yup but my bet is that you need to strip the gun, give it a good through cleaning and flush out the spring and pin and don't lube it or if you do, make it a VERY light amount.
Report back with your results.
Gary

 

[IMtheNRA]

Another possibility is that you're severely overcrimping the rounds and they slide too far forward when chambered.

 

[L. Boscoe]

CCI primer misfire issue

Ok, I always size my rounds after loading, so no brass issues. I did put the two offenders back in the same pistol and they fired just fine.
Ergo: a new gun issue, I will strip and see if the pin is working ok.
I have about six 45acp, just in case

 

[44 AMP]

Do be aware that the "oil" new guns are shipped with is a preservative, and not necessarily a lubricant. This can cause slow movement (especially in small parts) if they stuff is a bit on the thick side.

Clean everything out of the firing pin tunnel, and off the pin /spring and its likely your issue will disappear.

Also possible some shaving/crud from the manufacturing process could be in there and interfere with proper operation.

There are other possibilities but these two are the most common.

 

[IMtheNRA]

Ok, I always size my rounds after loading, so no brass issues. I did put the two offenders back in the same pistol and they fired just fine.
Ergo: a new gun issue, I will strip and see if the pin is working ok.
I have about six 45acp, just in case

You size them after loading? What do you mean by that?

 

[Unclenick]

He's probably using a Lee Carbide Factory Crimp Die, which passes the finished round through a sizing ring that matches the SAAMI maximum finished round to make sure no oversized-round feed problems occur. It's not how reloaders usually use the word.

44 Amp is correct. The first step I always take with a new gun is to completely disassemble it and run mineral spirits over everything in my part washer. When it is clean and dry I lubricate it and reassemble it. You can use other solvents. Ed's Red is good for this purpose. I've used it in a stainless container to let an extraordinarily dirty and disassembled 1911 just sit for a month, and when I pulled it out, all the fouling crud had fallen from the gun and was in the bottom of the container. It might have been done in a few days, for all I know. I just forgot about it until I had time to lube it and put it back together, so I can say that a month works pretty well.

It should be realized that most guns do not indent the primer as far as a fired round is indented. Instead, the firing pin pushes the round forward during ignition, and then rising pressure backs the primer out of the case and into the head clearance space before the firing pin has fully retracted. The case head then backs up under pressure, reseating the primer. These actions of backing up onto the extended firing pin is what deepens the indentation you see on a fired round. It is also what causes primer indentations to appear smeared on an autoloading pistol, as it means the slide has also started back and the barrel has begun unlocking before the firing pin completes retraction.

Primers do need to be seated well. This means past the point where the anvils touch the floor of the primer pocket, compressing the priming mix against the anvil tip by about 0.003". This is called "reconsolidating" the primer or "setting the bridge" (the amount of priming mix bridging the distance between the inside bottom of the primer cup and the tip of the anvil). With ideal primer pocket depth, that winds up 0.004" below flush with the head, as WoodysDad mentioned. In other words, the anvil feet touch the floor of the primer pocket at about 0.001" below flush, and then the bridge is set by compressing the priming mix an additional 0.003". However, I've run into enough primer pocket depth variation to know that can be off a little and is not deep enough below flush if the primer pocket depth has been uniformed with one of the several tools available for that purpose. They need to go even deeper. The K&M Primer Gauge tool lets you measure this, but it is a slow job priming with it. For most folks, a simple rule of thumb is to seat the primers hard to achieve this state.

 

[IMtheNRA]

Unclenick, if he is using a Lee fcd, it still won't fix a severely over crimped 45 ACP round which is sliding too far into the chamber. Before fixating on a greasy gun, I would first rule out a defective reload by looking at the crimp and primer seating consistency in a large sample of his rounds. Statistically speaking, that's the most likely place this failure originated.

 

[Unclenick]

I was just addressing your question asking what he meant by sizing after loading. I was not suggesting it would cure a light strike in any way.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

Ok, I always size my rounds after loading, so no brass issues. I did put the two offenders back in the same pistol and they fired just fine.
Ergo: a new gun issue, I will strip and see if the pin is working ok.

I disagree with your "Ergo."

It is equally if not more possible that you had a couple of primers that weren't fully seated. When that happens, often an initial primer strike uses up most of its kinetic energy to finish seating the primer, leaving only enough residual energy for a light strike. I have encountered this. As you found, they always fired when struck a second time.

See post #3 above.

 

[L. Boscoe]

Just for fyi, I am using a Dillon 550. I am of the opinion that it makes a brass
with a protruding primer difficult to move to the next station- is that a fair
take on the issue?
I will be shooting the gun in question this week after having dry fired it a lot
and cleaning it thoroughly'
Thanks for all the inputs

 

[44 AMP]

Protruding primer, yes, it will drag in the shellplate (if it sticks out enough). Flush but not fully seated primer will not give you that indication.

I don't have a 550, but I did have a 450 and on that press, the lower limit of ram travel (what you need for seating a primer) was controlled by a screw with a lock nut. I think the 550 uses the same system. Since the system is adjustable, there is always the possiblity of the adjustment changing slightly, so its something to be aware of, and check once in a while, and something to check specifically if your primer seating depth changes.

 

[Grey_Lion]

May I ask about the brass and your polishing process? Wet / Dry - media used etc? Primers in or out during polishing? Brass headstamps?

 

[higgite]

Protruding primer, yes, it will drag in the shellplate (if it sticks out enough). Flush but not fully seated primer will not give you that indication.

Looks to me like a primer would have to be protruding to the point of being almost out of the pocket before it would drag, but maybe I'm missing something.

{Edit: Please read and follow the board policy on posting copyrighted materials}

Edit: I clicked on the link and it tells me that I don't have permission to access that page. Also, the image wasn't copyrighted. It came form a defunct auction site. It's not the same image that's on Dillon's website.

 

[L. Boscoe]

To answer your question, dry corncob without primer removal, winchester headstamp.
Since I posted this question, I have taken the same pistol to the range and shot about 90 rounds through it using handloads with CCI primers, Federal Magnum
primers, and factory Winchester and Federal rounds.
The same issue arises about every 5th or 6th shot. Misfire, but after being overly concerned about lodging a bullet in the barrel, I am re cocking and firing and the round, no matter which source it comes from, fires just fine.
If I had a primer fire and not discharge, that would be a warning sign that a bullet might be lodged, and I would not re cock and fire.
SAR has the issue and is due to respond early this week.

 

[Unclenick]

Yep, your first attempt to fire is finishing seating the primer, then it can work OK. On average, large pistol primers are ideally seated about -0.0025" below flush with the case head. But primers and primer pocket depths vary enough that you are much better off measuring than guessing.

To find out where your primers need to sit ideally, you need to measure the depth of your primer pockets and the height of your primers. Subtract 0.003" from the height of the primer for ideal reconsolidation or bridge set height. Then subtract that result from your primer pocket height. The difference will be how far below flush your primers should be seated, ideally.

In my experience, Dillon tends to overdue the reduction in leverage with the handle in the primer seating position. With my Square Deal B, I quickly got into the habit of shoving the handle forward so hard it shakes the bench. That produces pretty consistent seating for me. You may not need that hard effort, but it's what I do.

I note that you referred to "new to me" primers. If these are CCI primers in the old packaging (tan or white tray sleeve with "Omark Industries" on the back, or even older "Cascade Cartridege Inc."), they were made before the primer line revamp (1992, IIRC) and the cups have burrs that make them extra hard to seat. I could never get them fully flush in my SquareDeal B, and went to Federal and Winchester primers back before '92 to prevent the problem.

Some foreign brass (IMI, for example) has primer pockets almost half a thousandth tighter than standard US cartridge cases. For these, I have to run them through a primer pocket swager as if they were crimped, before they will work in my Dillons.

 

[L. Boscoe]

The primers are new, just that i had been using Federal before, they are not
old stock.
Measuring the primer pockets with my dial caliper will be a challenge, but not
impossible. I may just get a depth micrometer and be done with it.

SAR USA has turned out to be a poor customer service outfit. The rep said he had to wait for the gunsmith to advise him, and the gunsmith turns up whenever he feels like it. He has not been seen since last Wed.
I sent an email to SAR in Turkey, will let you know if they respond. I really like the compact, even better than my CZ as far as grip and feel, even though they should be very close cousins.
One of the wisest men I ever knew, who ran a bunch of very high end restaurants told me "people will forget bad food, but they never forget bad service" True for any business.

 

[Unclenick]

I love an excuse to buy a new measuring tool!