CC on then DC/NoVA Metro?

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jawper

New member
Greetings all,

I will be relocating to the Northern Virginia area in the coming months from the Commonwealth of Massachusetts. I am a former Virginia resident. I formerly held a Permit to Carry a Concealed Handgun in Virginia and currently hold a License to Carry here in Massachusetts. I plan to re-obtain a Permit to Carry a Concealed Handgun when I arrive in Virginia. I am trying to understand the whether I can carry while riding the Metrorail on the VA side of the river, and more generally the Metro Transit Police's view of armed citizens riding the Metrorail.

Assuming that I am carrying a firearm in compliance with state and local laws and am NOT riding the Metrorail into the District of Columbia, may I carry a concealed firearm on the Metrorail? Are there any special consideration of which I should be aware? Any information you might provide would be highly appreciated.

Thanks!
 
M

Mike Irwin

Staff
As best as I can determine, no, it's against system rules, but I just don't know how much that means.

But those rules were developed before VA had generally accessible CCW, and since Metro is a quasi-governmental body, I would think that they would need approval of the sponsoring governments before they could ban handguns on the trains.

Me? I rarely ride Metro,but when I do, I'm armed.
 
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Mike in VA

New member
jawper -

AFAIK, IIRC, I never seen a Metro station posted with 'No Guns' or any sort of metal detector, so I suspect that you're OK in VA, bearing in miind that 'concealed' means just that (remember, you're riding in Fairfax Co, which is full of bedwetting bliss-ninnies who might herniate themselves if they saw a weapon). Metro cops' attitude on armed citizen, I don't know, but again, what they don't know can't hurt you. you might poke around here: http://www.smartraveler.com/wdc/ to get the poop on Metro

DC, of course, is another (3rd Wrold) country altogether - no guns, period. OTOH, properly concealled, well, let your conscience and good judgment be your guide. Things are prettyy paranoid in town these days.

Msg me when you get settled - a bunch of NoVA TFLers get together occasionally to shoot and grab a bite to eat, new faces are always welcome.
 
J

jawper

New member
Thanks for the info. all.

Mike in VA - Will do. I'm going to be down there working for the first couple months without my wife (she's finishing up stuff up here) so some companionship would be most welcome. Will also need to get the good read on ranges, etc. I'll look forward to saying hello in person
 
J

jawper

New member
Mike Irwin,

We'll be looking for something in the Arlington area.

It's funny you mentioned e-mailing the Metro people. I tried that and got a bounced message. Hmmmmm.
 
R

RWK

New member
I hate to disagree with my friend Mike, but . . .

It is absolutely illegal to CCW on the DC subway system. Many signs posted -- at least two in every car plus several in each station -- that indicate this (along with no food or drink, no non-earphone radios or "players", and so forth).

If you conceal well, I suspect you can get away with it. However, if you are "made", I believe there will be zero tolerance and you will receive a felony conviction -- Goodbye CCW license in every jurisdiction.

The Metro cops are a separate police force with authority in Maryland, DC and Virginia (obviously, all associated with Metro property -- including stations, parking lots, etc. as well as the trains themselves). Since the Metro system frequently and publicly prides itself on crime and passenger safety, I very much doubt if you will be able to avoid arrest if caught carrying on the subway.

I am not advocating this foolishness, but sincerely warn you to either not carry or to be VERY careful to ensure you are not identified. In addition, in these post-11 September days of "razor edge emotions" in the Washington area, people are being vigilant; therefore, your likelihood of being made -- absent briefcase carry, etc. -- is probably greater than it was a few months ago.

Finally -- and most important -- welcome; I'll look forward to meeting you.
 
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jawper

New member
RWK,

Very imprtant and useful information. I greatly apreciate the heads up. This certainly changes some of my day-to-day plans.

Thanks again.
 
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Mike in VA

New member
My face is red, I'ma spud. I really hadn't noticed, but then again, I don't ride metro that often. I'm usually pretty circumspect and notice stuff like that. I remember the 'no food, drink, pets' parts , weapons just didn't register. I'll lok sharply next rtip. My apologies.
 
M

Mike Irwin

Staff
RWK,

My question is what is their legal authority for attempting to do so?

They're a quasi-government agency, meaning that they're neither fish nor fowl. I'm not at all certain that they're allowed to prohibit firearms under the same law that allows counties to prohibit firearms in court houses, etc.

I'm still waiting to hear back from Metro...
 
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JimR

New member
IANAL, and I don't live in NoVA.

That said, here in GA, my understanding is that, despite the "no weapons" posts on MARTA (Metropolitan Atlanta Regional Transit Authority), CCW holders can legally carry on the trains, as there is no provision in the CCW legislation to prevent legal carry via signage.

Don't have any suggestions for how you might verify your legal status on Metro in VA.
 
R

RWK

New member
For my friend Mike Irwin . . .

Hi Mike,

I will be eager to read Metro's response to your question.

I agree they are "quasi governmental", however:
> The Metro Police do have arrest authority, in all three jurisdictions, on/proximate to Metro property.
> Even in Virginia, as you know the only of the jurisdictions with any reasonable CCW laws, property owners have the statutory right to ban firearms on their property; thus, if the Metro is "private", their board and management could legally prohibit CCW.

You know I don't like this. Further, a legal challenge far into the state/Federal appeals system might work. However, I am quite certain that if an individual with a Virginia CCW permit is "made" on a Metro subway he will be arrested. My goal is not to be.
 
D

dZ

New member
http://www.wmata.com/about/mtpd.htm

Metro Transit Police

Overview of the department

The Metro Transit Police Department has an authorized strength of 303 sworn and 23 civilian personnel. Officers provide a variety of law enforcement and public safety services on the Metrorail and Metrobus systems in the Washington Metropolitan Area. Metro Transit Police Officers have jurisdiction and arrest powers throughout the 1,500 square mile Transit Zone, that includes Maryland, Virginia, and the District of Columbia for crimes that occur on or against Transit Authority facilities. The Metro Transit Police Department is the only tri-jurisdictional police agency in the country. The Metro Transit Police serve a population of 3.2 million.

* Metro Transit Police officer candidates are trained to the standards set for police in the District of Columbia, Maryland and Virginia.
* Uniformed and plainclothes Metro Transit Police officers patrol trains, stations and parking lots.
* Radio dispatched scout cars respond to both rail and bus security problems.
* Metro Transit Police's innovative bicycle patrol is well suited to patrolling Metro's parking lots.
* Uniformed and plainclothes officers ride Metrobuses at random and in areas where problems have been reported.
* Metro Transit Police detectives have a good record for tracking down people who commit crimes on Metro property.
 
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Mike Irwin

Staff
RWK,

Metro is not, by any stretch of the imagination, a private property owner, that's where the confusion comes in.

They were created by a special act of Congress, along with the police department, to build and manage only the Metro.

That's why I'm thinking that they don't have the ability to ban firearms in the system.
 
M

Mike Irwin

Staff
RWK,

Metro is not, by any stretch of the imagination, a private property owner, that's where the confusion comes in.

They were created by a special act of Congress, along with the police department, to build and manage only the Metro.

That's why I'm thinking that they don't have the ability to ban firearms in the system, not unlike how Fairfax County government, even though they have their own dedicated police force, the Sheriff's Office, can't ban handguns from the county recreation centers without state approval to countervene the CCW law.

My district supervisor and I have had a number of hard conversations on the rec center issue. I told him that if his efforts are successful, and he gets to ban handguns from the rec centers, and I'm injured because of that, I'm coming after him personally.

He didn't quite know what to make of that... :)
 
S

Smurfslayer

New member
Count on being arrested

if you're made... As to whether or not you're convicted of any crime - that 's a matter for the courts. IIRC, this was brought up perhaps before and someone allegedly spoke to a transit cop. his response was basically 'I would arrest on a weapons charge & let the court decide'. I only remember this as 3rd hand info, so take it for what it's worth... In VA, if they post signs (they being the property owner), and you carry there anyway, you violated the law and can be prosecuted. If NOT posted - and it's ambiguous as to whether or not it has to be posted at every entrance - then you cannot be prosecuted for violation of 18.2-308 (CCW law) unless you refuse to leave...

This is a good question...
 
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Ironbarr

New member
Smurfslayer...

I have yet to find "signs" as a requirement for warning permit holders. I've read here of other states requiring signs posted to ban guns, but I haven't found it in the VA Code. If you have a reference or something, please let us know.

BTW: the Va Code section was down for several hours Friday PM ... when I got back to it yesterday there was a slew of "Repealed Oct 1, 2001" pages and a bunch of new and/or rewritten pages- I wasn't into the ccw pages so we'd best check them out, huh?

Thanks.

Andy
 
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David Park

New member
Ironbarr, I think you're right about no signage requirement in VA. I thought there was one too, but it seems there isn't. Here's the law:
Code of VA section 18.2-308
O. The granting of a concealed handgun permit shall not thereby authorize the possession of any handgun or other weapon on property or in places where such possession is otherwise prohibited by law or is prohibited by the owner of private property.
Click to expand...
Note that this implicitly allows open carry.

As for Metro, if it was created by a special act of Congress, that could make it a federal facility. If so, then weapons could be banned but signage is required for conviction (because ignorance IS a defense, but by posting this I'm waiving my right to ignorance ;) ). Are Metro workers federal employees? If not then it's not a federal facility.

The above federal info is from The Virginia Gun Owner's Guide; use at your own risk.
 
I

Ironbarr

New member
David Park...

Thanks for the work.

I just wrote a reply, but then realized what I wrote had nothing to do with the thread subject (Carry on WashDC/Virginia Metro).

My reply will be in a new Legal thread - "VA - Sign or No Sign".

Andy

.
 
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