Cases stuck on trim pilot

[cdoc42]

I'm running into a problem I haven't seen in 40 years of reloading. I've used a Lyman electric trimmer without a problem but recently I've routinely had .270, 7mm RM and 6.5 Creedmore cases, after trimming, stick so strongly to the pilot that extraction attempt pulls the pilot out of the cutter and it remains in the case. Sometimes I can pull it out by hand with a pliers, other times I need to put the pilot stem in a vise and pull it out.

One solution was to use the next smaller pilot - e.g., in .270, use the .26 pilot, but that obviously doesn't explain the problem.

It has been my habit to reload cases until the necks split or I see the very subtle sign of head separation or loose primer pockets. I used to record the number of reloads but as time went on and I reached 17 calibers to reload that recording process was replaced by the current one of observation.

I'm suspicious that the cases in question have been loaded so many times that brass has flowed into the necks and when trimmed, the mouth of the case becomes so thick that it sticks. When I chamfer the case it sometimes fits on the pilot, sometimes, not. If that is the case, do I need to INSIDE neck turn or will OUTSIDE neck turning do the trick?

Strangely, once these cases have bullets seated they chamber without a problem, suggesting the above theory is not correct.

 

[243winxb]

When the cutter head is dull, this happens. Or the feed rate is to high/fast. Do use some cutting oil on the cutter head, about every 3 pcs of brass.

Had same problem with my Lyman Universal trimmer using the old cutter head type. Looks like a newer Carbide is available now.

 

[ShootistPRS]

Two things to do to prevent the burr from forming on the case neck:
First be sure the pilot is fully seated against the cutter.
Feed the cutter slow to reduce the pressure on the mouth of the case.
If that doesn't solve the problem then either get your cutter head sharpened or get a new cutter.

 

[F. Guffey]

One solution was to use the next smaller pilot - e.g., in .270, use the .26 pilot, but that obviously doesn't explain the problem.

This has been a problem from the beginning ; reloaders getting into mortal combat with the case when removing the case from the trimmer piolet. Many years ago I said there were a few mistakes made when manufacturers made the pilots or they gave reloaders a choice; the choice was to trim before sizing or after sizing. And everyone got so confused;

And then there is the edge of the case mouth, some reloaders trim as though they were angry, instead of removing metal the flare the neck, the flare causes the neck to be forced between the cutter and cutter holder; the battle to remove the case begins when the reloader pulls the case off of the pilot.

Anyhow, a reloader must keep the pilot secured tp prevent the case mouth from getting stuck.

I have old trimmers with large pilots that were designed to be used with fired cases before they were sized. I know: I could chuck them up and frond them to fit, I could use an Arkansas Mill etc. but this stuff does not lock me up or drive me to the curb.

F. Guffey

 

[T. O'Heir]

You sizing before trimming?
"...loaded so many times..." That means they've become work hardened. May not be expanding as much when fired. Any cracks mean you pitch that case and anneal the rest.

 

[F. Guffey]

You sizing before trimming?

Yes I did, remember, this was before the Internet. I had two ways of trimming that did not include a pilot. Before the Internet there was no rule about trimming before or after sizing. Now? We have 'trim to length'.

My most favorite and accurate trimming method was with the man tool, the hack saw and file. For those that have never used a forming die the forming die is used before the sizing die and for those that can keep up when forming the case with a forming die the case is trimmed after forming and before sizing.

And then there were all of those reloaders that knew little to nothing about pilots, their trimmers did not use pilots, they used case holders with the L.E. Wilson case trimmer. Those using the Wilson case trimmer were required to keep up with fired and or sized cases. In those days most reloaders had two different case holders, one for fired cases and another for sized cases.

Again, I have two different pilots for trimmers, one set requires the reloader to go into mortal combat when they shove the pilot into the case if the case is sized. There is something about getting into conflict with a pilot that is not necessary; if the pilot is too large for the neck of the case trim before firing.

F. Guffey

 

[FrankenMauser]

See posts two and three.
That's my opinion, as well. Not much point in saying it all again.

 

[cdoc42]

Thanks all. I'll be at Cabelas tomorrow for a new cutter head

 

[F. Guffey]

See posts two and three.
That's my opinion, as well. Not much point in saying it all again.

I did not see anything added to other options, I do not insist a reloader must size first and them trim; to do that there is too much information he must ignore first. one more time, I like the trim die that is also a forming die; WHY! I do not trim my cases by the book when it comes to specifications, that is mindless and there are case trimmers that set-up on the shoulder of the case. To understand that the reloader is requ9ired to understand the Wilson case gage. For most reloaders the Wilson case gage was a drop in gage and the same reloaders that claimed the Wilson case gage was a drop in gage ignored the benefits offered by a datum based tool.

I want my case to cover the chamber, to do that I must know the length of the chamber.

My forming dies have threads, threads make my forming dies adjustable. When forming cases for long chambers I can add to the length of the case from the datum to the case head. I understand most are confused but there is nothing written that says I have to trim a case to specs/by the book, a reloader that can keep up with 'it all' can add to the length of the case even thought he is using a case trimmer that uses the shoulder of the case; again, he case body protrudes from the trimmer if the trimmer trims by setting up on the shoulder.

And then there is the Lee trimmers, run them by hand or with a drill, if the reloaders does not think he only gets one length case. And then there are chambers, by now we should all know chambers come in different length. I have one that is .016" longer from the shoulder to the bolt face than a minimum length/full length sized case. For me? That is not a problem.

F. Guffey

 

[hdwhit]

cdoc42 wrote:
I used to record the number of reloads but as time went on and I reached 17 calibers to reload that recording process was replaced by the current one of observation.

Once it passes it's "intake inspection" and enters the "reloading stream" every case I own is part of a "batch". The "batch" has a number that uniquely identifies it. This allows the case to be tracked throughout its entire lifetime with me. The batch is independent of the caliber of the cartridge and is not dependent upon the number of different calibers I load.

 

[cw308]

I use the RCBS Trim Pro 2 ,There were times the pilot came out of the cutter . I changed the allan screws with a regular screw that tightened the pilot better. Are you sizing your brass with the expander ball ? How clean is your brass .

 

[Don Fischer]

I had that problem and seem's like the real answer is here, get a new cutter head. But what I did was lube a bit inside the case neck and the thing came out a lot better. Bit of that Hornady wax on a Q-Tip got me going. Think I'll get a new cutter head though!

 

[cdoc42]

cw308: If I used a tighter screw I would probably ruin the trimmer. As it is, when it's stuck, I can pull on it with the handle that holds the case and at times the cutter head begins to pull away from the trimmer. I loosen the allan screw so the pilot extracts.

I've always sized with an expander ball. The brass is clean because I put a batch of fired cases in the cleaner, then resize, then measure, trim those that need it, then clean the lubricant off by throwing them allin the cleaner for 15-20 minutes.

I'm not clear why one would trim before resizing. How do you know which cases are near or at the max length? You'd have to trim all the cases, then resize, and some (or all)would lengthen again from resizing (but not obviously to max). I resize and trim only those at or over max length. All cases are therefore within that 0.01 inch range between recommended max and trimmed length.

 

[cdoc42]

F. Guffey, how does your procedure differ from setting a conventional die to resize a case fired in A particular rifle so that the shoulder is set back 0.002" from the fired position? Any brass that flows beyond that during resizing is in the neck which enlongates the case, requiring trimming -??

 

[cw308]

cdoc42
I'm not fimilar with the Lyman electronic trimmer , I use the RCBS Trim Pro , Im having a small problem with minor scratches inside the necks 308 cal. They sent me a new polished pilot , helped a little ,there sending me a new cutter , great company to deal with . Did you try to polish the pilot , can you go slower as your trimming , it must be as hard going in the neck as on the backing out . Did you change brass , could the brass be thicker then normal. I never heard of trimming before sizing . Makes no sense to me .

I have my cutter to cut the same every time , 308 is 2.005 to max. 2.015 I trim every firing to 2.012 makes trimming very easy. That could add to tough trimming if your cutting back a lot , makes even chamfering a pain . It does take time trimming every firing but very little has to be trimmed , makes trimming & chamfering easy . I don't lube the pilot or the necks when trimming , that to me would be a pain.

 

[Metal god]

Does the Lyman electric grab the case the same way the Lyman universal does . If so , just don't use the pilots . That's what I've been doing . That universal head grabs the case hard enough that you don't need the pilots . Every once and awhile I'll get a little wobble but you just slow down a bit and they come out pretty square as far as I can tell .

They're not perfectly square but that seems pretty close to me .

 

[cdoc42]

No, the Lyman that I have snaps the case into a chuck that tightens with a roll of the ball at the end of the handle. It probably would work as you describe, but I can achieve a better cut by using the pilot to the next lower caliber. I can't find a picture on the Lyman web site- I think they stopped making the one I have.

I changedto a new cutter and had no problem with 7mm Mag cases; I'll have to see how it handles older .270 cases.

 

[FrankenMauser]

Try deburring and stoning the old cutter, if you feel so-inclined.

That's what I did for my Hornady trimmer, and it went from an annoying beast to a clean-cutting machine.

 

[F. Guffey]

how does your procedure differ from setting a conventional die to resize a case fired in A particular rifle so that the shoulder is set back 0.002" from the fired position? Any brass that flows beyond that during resizing is in the neck which enlongates the case, requiring trimming -??

Again and again I ask: How is it possible to set the shoulder back? Again, I find it impossible to move the shoulder back, and then there is 'bump', I know I was told reloaders have been repeating that old saying for so long it has been accepted reloaders understand what the other is saying and I always ask: "DO THEY?"

I have no ideal why we have to start over ever time, I suggest there is a lot of things that happen in sequence between pulling the trigger and the bullet leaving the barrel reloaders do not understand.

It would help if the reloader measured before and again after firing, I have fired many cases that got shorter from the end of the neck to the case head when fired, when fired the shoulder on the same case did not move; and I like that.

F. Guffey

 

[cdoc42]

I have a "Cartridge Headspace Gauge" from Stoney Point that has 5 bushings labeled A through E with diameters 0.330" to 0.420" used for calibers specified in the directions. For example, Bushing "C" (0.375") is used for 6mm Rem, 257 Robts, 25-06, .270 Rem and 7 others I need not list here. The bushings are affixed to your caliper.

One measures a fired (fire-formed) case in this device (i.e., after firing) and the reading is the length of the case from the base to the datum line of the shoulder. That line is NOT the same as the base of the neck to the base of the case. One then sets the resize die so that the resized case measures 0.001 to 0.002" less than the fired case dimension. Thus, the shoulder has been "set back" to a headspace dimension that will only fit that rifle (unless manufactured tolerances are equal in another similar caliber rifle.

I have not measured a brand new case before firing, although it would be my expectation that the base to datum line size would be much smaller than my fired, resized and set-back shoulder so that it would fit in anyone's rifle of the same caliber. When fired, of course, that case accommodates the dimensions of my particular rifle chamber, and if that distance is at the long end of SAMMI recommendations, repeated firing and standard resizing will more quickly stretch the case leading to early failure.

How does that differ from your technique?