CAS shooters and tubular magazines.
- Thread starter SIGSHR
- Start date
cheatin charlie
New member
NO problem I have ever hear of if you use flat nose bullets that will not set
the primer off of the round in front of it in the magazine.
The follower of a Henry should never be allowed to slam down on the shells
in the magazine even if using flat nose bullets. There have been cases of
shells going off that way.
Never heard of a problem with a 1866 or 1876 or 1892 having a magazine
explosion.
the primer off of the round in front of it in the magazine.
The follower of a Henry should never be allowed to slam down on the shells
in the magazine even if using flat nose bullets. There have been cases of
shells going off that way.
Never heard of a problem with a 1866 or 1876 or 1892 having a magazine
explosion.
Buzzard Bait
New member
Tube magazines are not new
Why, people have been using tubular magazines since forever its never been a problem, just use flat nose bullets like your supposed to.
bb
Why, people have been using tubular magazines since forever its never been a problem, just use flat nose bullets like your supposed to.
bb
Bishop Creek
New member
Never had any problems with my 44/40 Uberti 1873. Always use flat nose bullets.
Model12Win
Moderator
Flat tips or soft rounded tips are the best bet in Henry's rifles.
Driftwood Johnson
New member
Howdy
I shoot a lot of CAS. I have six rifles chambered for 44-40 or 38-40. I do not load down my rounds as many do in CAS, I only shoot rounds loaded with a full case of Black Powder, so the recoil is as robust as it will be with a 24" barreled lever gun.
Regarding the question of possible ignition of rounds in the magazine, with most tubular feed rifles there are two forces at work. When the rifle fires and moves backward in recoil, all the rounds in the magazine go backwards with it. Then when the rifle stops moving, all the rounds in the magazine come to a stop. However the rearward motion of the rifle is not an abrupt stop because the shooter's body, which is relatively soft, cushions the blow. This means the column of rounds in the magazine does not experience the kind of sharp impact that might be likely to fire a primer. Of course with a heavier recoiling round such as 38-55 or 45-70, the force will be greater, but not so much with the rounds commonly used in CAS.
The other force is the slamming back of the column of cartridges that happens every time the carrier strips a round out of the magazine when the lever is operated. This force is actually stronger than the force of recoil, particularly when the first few rounds are fired, because the magazine spring is under a great deal of compression.
It has been standard practice for a long time now in CAS to use flat nosed bullets in our rifles, we do not even use regular round nosed bullets. With flat nosed bullets, I have never heard of an instance of a magazine discharge from recoil or from the magazine spring. Even with a high primer, the meplat of a flat nosed bullet is larger in diameter than the primer, so there is nothing sharp or pointed to dent a primer enough to ignite it.
Notice I qualified my first statement by saying 'most tubular feed rifles'. The 1860 Henry rifle is a different story.
Both the Uberti replica of the 1860 Henry and the one currently being made by the Henry Repeating Arms Company load the same way the original Henry rifle loaded. The King's Patent side loading gate had not yet been invented when these rifles were made. Instead, there is a slot running the entire length of the magazine. The follower has a tab that protrudes through the slot. In order to load, one grabs the tab and pulls it all the way forward, compressing the magazine spring in the process. The last 1/16" or so of motion of the tab unlocks the barrel sleeve assembly at the front of the barrel. The shooter then rotates the sleeve assembly out of the way, exposing the end of the magazine for loading. The follower is held captive in the sleeve, with the magazine spring fully compressed.
After loading the magazine, one has to be very careful to control the follower because the magazine spring is fully compressed. If one were to swivel the barrel sleeve assembly back in position without controlling the follower, the follower would slam down on the column of rounds in the magazine with great force. This is much more force than the column of rounds sees in either of the examples I gave earlier. In fact, the fewer rounds in the magazine, the faster the follower will be moving when it strikes the first cartridge.
Everyone who has one of these rifles knows they MUST control the follower when loading the rifle. My loading procedure is to wrap one hand around the barrel and magazine just below the end of the magazine. That way, if the follower should slip out of my grasp, the tab will strike my hand, arresting its motion. Yes, it hurts, but it is better than rounds going off in the magazine. I also never drop rounds straight down the magazine, instead I tilt the gun slightly from horizontal and allow the rounds to slowly trickle down the tube.
Yes, there have been instances of rounds going off in the magazine of the 1860 Henry when slammed by a loose follower. And believe it or not, this has happened even when primers have been properly seated below flush.
As I said in the earlier post on the other page, I believe there is something else going on here. I have a strong suspicion that the force exerted by a loose follower slamming rounds in the magazine is so great that perhaps the primer cup is moving enough to pinch the priming material between it and the anvil enough to ignite a primer. I have no proof of this, but it is my suspicion. Even with flat nosed bullets and properly seated primers.
I shoot a lot of CAS. I have six rifles chambered for 44-40 or 38-40. I do not load down my rounds as many do in CAS, I only shoot rounds loaded with a full case of Black Powder, so the recoil is as robust as it will be with a 24" barreled lever gun.
Regarding the question of possible ignition of rounds in the magazine, with most tubular feed rifles there are two forces at work. When the rifle fires and moves backward in recoil, all the rounds in the magazine go backwards with it. Then when the rifle stops moving, all the rounds in the magazine come to a stop. However the rearward motion of the rifle is not an abrupt stop because the shooter's body, which is relatively soft, cushions the blow. This means the column of rounds in the magazine does not experience the kind of sharp impact that might be likely to fire a primer. Of course with a heavier recoiling round such as 38-55 or 45-70, the force will be greater, but not so much with the rounds commonly used in CAS.
The other force is the slamming back of the column of cartridges that happens every time the carrier strips a round out of the magazine when the lever is operated. This force is actually stronger than the force of recoil, particularly when the first few rounds are fired, because the magazine spring is under a great deal of compression.
It has been standard practice for a long time now in CAS to use flat nosed bullets in our rifles, we do not even use regular round nosed bullets. With flat nosed bullets, I have never heard of an instance of a magazine discharge from recoil or from the magazine spring. Even with a high primer, the meplat of a flat nosed bullet is larger in diameter than the primer, so there is nothing sharp or pointed to dent a primer enough to ignite it.
Notice I qualified my first statement by saying 'most tubular feed rifles'. The 1860 Henry rifle is a different story.
Both the Uberti replica of the 1860 Henry and the one currently being made by the Henry Repeating Arms Company load the same way the original Henry rifle loaded. The King's Patent side loading gate had not yet been invented when these rifles were made. Instead, there is a slot running the entire length of the magazine. The follower has a tab that protrudes through the slot. In order to load, one grabs the tab and pulls it all the way forward, compressing the magazine spring in the process. The last 1/16" or so of motion of the tab unlocks the barrel sleeve assembly at the front of the barrel. The shooter then rotates the sleeve assembly out of the way, exposing the end of the magazine for loading. The follower is held captive in the sleeve, with the magazine spring fully compressed.
After loading the magazine, one has to be very careful to control the follower because the magazine spring is fully compressed. If one were to swivel the barrel sleeve assembly back in position without controlling the follower, the follower would slam down on the column of rounds in the magazine with great force. This is much more force than the column of rounds sees in either of the examples I gave earlier. In fact, the fewer rounds in the magazine, the faster the follower will be moving when it strikes the first cartridge.
Everyone who has one of these rifles knows they MUST control the follower when loading the rifle. My loading procedure is to wrap one hand around the barrel and magazine just below the end of the magazine. That way, if the follower should slip out of my grasp, the tab will strike my hand, arresting its motion. Yes, it hurts, but it is better than rounds going off in the magazine. I also never drop rounds straight down the magazine, instead I tilt the gun slightly from horizontal and allow the rounds to slowly trickle down the tube.
Yes, there have been instances of rounds going off in the magazine of the 1860 Henry when slammed by a loose follower. And believe it or not, this has happened even when primers have been properly seated below flush.
As I said in the earlier post on the other page, I believe there is something else going on here. I have a strong suspicion that the force exerted by a loose follower slamming rounds in the magazine is so great that perhaps the primer cup is moving enough to pinch the priming material between it and the anvil enough to ignite a primer. I have no proof of this, but it is my suspicion. Even with flat nosed bullets and properly seated primers.
BlackPowderBen
New member
Wow that gun is a beauty driftwood!
Model12Win
Moderator
Driftwood how is that Uberti Henry? Is it a good gun, worth the money?
It's on the short list for me. The American made Henry Repeating Arms version is very nice, but way outside my budget.
It's on the short list for me. The American made Henry Repeating Arms version is very nice, but way outside my budget.
bedbugbilly
New member
A year ago, I had the opportunity to examine an original brass frame Henry Rifle that is in a private collection. It was carried by a soldier in an Indiana regiment - the rifle was engraved with his name and regiment. They were truly a awesome rifle in their day and certainly earned their place in history.
Driftwood - that's a beautiful rifle and I'll bet it's a real pleasure to shoot!
Driftwood - that's a beautiful rifle and I'll bet it's a real pleasure to shoot!
Driftwood Johnson
New member
Howdy Again
It is as simple as can be. The barrel sleeve assembly only rotates about 45 degrees in one direction. There is a screw head between the barrel and magazine. When the sleeve is rotated as far as it will go, the magazine spring pops the follower back about 1/8" or so, stopping on the screw head. In this position the brass body of the follower is nestled just below the mouth of the magazine, effectively preventing it from rotating back into position until you pull the follower forward that 1/8". If you remove that screw, the follower will come flying out under spring pressure. Notice there is a small rubber insert in the follower, put there to help prevent accidental discharges in the magazine if you lose control of the follower. It is useless.
Yes, it is a very well made rifle, but it takes some getting used to. It is heavy. Because the magazine is integral with the barrel, it weighs a full pound more than an Uberti 1873 of the same barrel length. The thin magazine tube of the 1866 or 1873 rifle weighs less than the magazine of the Henry. And because there is no wooden fore end you are holding bare metal. It can get hot, particularly if you shoot Black Powder like I do. I always wear a glove on my left hand when shooting my Henry in the summer because the barrel/magazine gets so hot.
And you MUST observe the cautions I mentioned when loading it. Never drop rounds straight down the tube, trickle them down at an angle, and more important, Never, Never, NEVER allow the follower to slip out of your hand and slam down onto a column of cartridges. Rounds may discharge in the magazine.
I saved some money on my Henry a few years ago by buying it from Dixie Gunworks. Dixie periodically runs specials on various models. Mine is the 'iron framed' (it's actually steel) model chambered for 44-40. I saved about $200 when I bought it on special from Dixie. They shipped the gun to my favorite gunsmith, and I picked it up from him. I paid about $800 for mine a bunch of years ago, you can't get it for that price anymore, but if you are serious about a Henry, check the Dixie Gun Works website often to see if they are on special.
I just checked Dixie and they are running a bunch of specials right now. The 'iron frame' 44-40 like mine is discounted $100 right now, the discount price is $1325. The brass framed 44-40 Henry is a really good deal right now, reduced from $1425 to $1125. That's a terrific price! The brass framed 45 Colt Henry is $1175 right now, reduced from $1425. Another terrific price! They only run these specials until they run out of stock, then the price goes up again. I just checked Taylors and Cimarron, their prices are nowhere near as good as that.
https://www.dixiegunworks.com/default.php?cPath=22_92_184&osCsid=37gvlfknf4cmc12u0aabb406g6
As opposed to spitizers which are a no-no in lever actions, I mentioned nylon tipped projectiles as viable replacements if one wanted a bullet with that shape. I just learned that at high velocity the nylon tips can deform under the heat and this, at long range, will affect its ballistic coefficient. Lever action CAS folks don't have to worry about it though because they're not competing against the 1,000 yard crowd.
Gaucho Gringo
New member
Most of the people shooting these are deer hunters with their 30-30 lever actions trying to get a shot at a deer at a range that regular 30-30 ammo would be iffy. Wounding an animal rather than a humane clean kill is a sin in my book.
Driftwood Johnson
New member
The original question was in inquiry to CAS/SASS shooters. So I'm not quite sure why you are making comments about hunting with a 30-30. Nobody shoots 30-30 in CAS/SAAS, it is not a legal caliber. The only calibers that are legal to shoot in a lever gun in CAS are the so called 'pistol calibers' such as 45 Colt, 44-40, 38-40 to name a few.