Just wondering. I've already checked out http://www.thefiringline.com:8080/forums/showthread.php?threadid=27285 and http://www.thefiringline.com:8080/forums/showthread.php?threadid=24985 and http://www.packing.org/. The missus and I are taking an extended road trip to visit family in IN, KY. and N. FL. I drive a "midsized" SUV. When we go through IL and MO, I'm planning on putting my S&W Model 60 and my NAA mini in the S&W case, locking the case, and putting it inside a suitcase in the back of the vehicle. Think that'll be okay?
Carrying in an SUV
- Thread starter ckurts
- Start date
ckurts has a good question here.
I also have a mid-SUV. And since there really is no such as a "trunk", where the hey are you supposed to place this other stuff like ammo?
There is a small compartment in the back, but it's mostly occupied by the auto-leveling system for the rear shocks. So, I'm SOL in that capacity.
I've asked a few local LEO, and a couple State Troopers about this, and they tell me that if the "firearms" are in one container, preferably locked. And the ammo is in another container, preferably locked. That I'll should be able to go most anywhere without a frey.
Except of course places of higher civility like Chicago, WDC, NYC, etc. Places too civilized to understand such Neanderthal concepts as personal protection and responsibility. Words from one of the troopers!
Best Regards,
Don
------------------
The most foolish mistake we could make would be to allow the subjected people to carry arms;
History shows that all conquerers who have allowed their subjected people to carry arms have prepared their own fall.
Adolf Hitler
-----------------
"Corrupt the young, get them away from religion. Get them interested in sex. Make them superficial, and destroy their rugged- ness.
Get control of all means of publicity, and thereby get the peoples' mind off their government by focusing their attention on athletics, sexy books and plays, and other trivialities.
Divide the people into hostile groups by constantly harping on controversial matters of no importance."
Vladimir Ilich Lenin, former leader of USSR
[This message has been edited by Donny (edited June 19, 2000).]
I also have a mid-SUV. And since there really is no such as a "trunk", where the hey are you supposed to place this other stuff like ammo?
There is a small compartment in the back, but it's mostly occupied by the auto-leveling system for the rear shocks. So, I'm SOL in that capacity.
I've asked a few local LEO, and a couple State Troopers about this, and they tell me that if the "firearms" are in one container, preferably locked. And the ammo is in another container, preferably locked. That I'll should be able to go most anywhere without a frey.
Except of course places of higher civility like Chicago, WDC, NYC, etc. Places too civilized to understand such Neanderthal concepts as personal protection and responsibility. Words from one of the troopers!
Best Regards,
Don
------------------
The most foolish mistake we could make would be to allow the subjected people to carry arms;
History shows that all conquerers who have allowed their subjected people to carry arms have prepared their own fall.
Adolf Hitler
-----------------
"Corrupt the young, get them away from religion. Get them interested in sex. Make them superficial, and destroy their rugged- ness.
Get control of all means of publicity, and thereby get the peoples' mind off their government by focusing their attention on athletics, sexy books and plays, and other trivialities.
Divide the people into hostile groups by constantly harping on controversial matters of no importance."
Vladimir Ilich Lenin, former leader of USSR
[This message has been edited by Donny (edited June 19, 2000).]
The "guns in one compartment, ammo in the other" idea is a common misconception. It's all dependent on state law. Here in WA, for example, you can carry unloaded guns in a vehicle in just about any manner you choose. You can have a pistol with the slide locked back, and a full magazine sitting right next to it, and it's legal.
My point? It all depends on the state. Some states may require gun and ammo to be stored separately, but not all.
See packing.org for excellent information on state gun laws.
------------------
"Anyone feel like saluting the flag which the strutting ATF and FBI gleefully raised over the smoldering crematorium of Waco, back in April of ‘93?" -Vin Suprynowicz
[This message has been edited by deanf (edited June 20, 2000).]
My point? It all depends on the state. Some states may require gun and ammo to be stored separately, but not all.
See packing.org for excellent information on state gun laws.
------------------
"Anyone feel like saluting the flag which the strutting ATF and FBI gleefully raised over the smoldering crematorium of Waco, back in April of ‘93?" -Vin Suprynowicz
[This message has been edited by deanf (edited June 20, 2000).]
ckurts,
Just to be on the safe side while in IL and MO, we're going to put all our guns in locked cases, UNDER all the luggage in the back of our SUV, w/ ammo in the glove compartment. We're also not going to do anything to draw attention to ourselves, like speed, run lights etc (but we don't usually anyway).
You should be safe if you do it that way. Good luck! (but if not, we may end up spending the night in the slammer together!)
------------------
---------------------------
"Pray as if your life depends on God, Prepare as if it all depends on you..." -Texas Preacher
[This message has been edited by Darthmaum (edited June 20, 2000).]
Just to be on the safe side while in IL and MO, we're going to put all our guns in locked cases, UNDER all the luggage in the back of our SUV, w/ ammo in the glove compartment. We're also not going to do anything to draw attention to ourselves, like speed, run lights etc (but we don't usually anyway).
You should be safe if you do it that way. Good luck! (but if not, we may end up spending the night in the slammer together!)
------------------
---------------------------
"Pray as if your life depends on God, Prepare as if it all depends on you..." -Texas Preacher
[This message has been edited by Darthmaum (edited June 20, 2000).]
I live in Missouri and am quite familiar with the laws. It is not known or believed by a lot of people, but it is legal to have a concealed weapon while "traveling peacably through the state". I am not recommending that be done since some court might try to redefine it or something. Further more, some law enforcement officers don't know the law. I don't know much about Illinois, but it is more of an "anti-gun" state than Missouri. The NRA site lists summaries of state laws. Here are summaries of laws for Missouri and Illinois directly from the NRA site.
Missouri State Firearms Laws
PLEASE NOTE: In addition to state laws, the purchase, sale and (in certain circumstances) the possession and interstate transportation of firearms is regulated by the Gun Control Act of 1968 as amended by the Firearms Ownersí Protection Act. Also, cities and localities may have their own firearms ordinances in addition to federal and state laws. Details may be obtained by contacting local law enforcement authorities, and by consulting the State Laws and Published OrdinancesóFirearms, available from the U.S. Government Printing Office, Washington, D.C. 20402.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Missouri
(As of November, 1998)
QUICK REFERENCE CHART
Rifles and Shotguns Handguns
Permit to Purchase
No Yes
Registration of Firearms
No No
Licensing of Owners
No No
Permit to Carry
No No*
State Constitutional Provision
"That the right of every citizen to keep and bear arms in defense of his home, person and property, or when lawfully summoned in aid of the civil power, shall not be questioned; but this shall not justify the wearing of concealed weapons.'' Article 1, Section 23.
Possession
There are no state licensing requirements for the possession of a rifle, shotgun or handgun.
It is unlawful for a convicted felon, a fugitive from justice, an habitually intoxicated, or drugged person or one who is currently adjudicated mentally incompetent to possess any concealable firearm (firearms with a barrel length of less than 16 inches).
It is unlawful to possess, manufacture, transport, repair or sell any machine gun, rifle of less than 16 inch barrel length, shotgun of less than 18 inch barrel length, silencer, or explosive bullets unless incident to the performance of military duties or if an importer, manufacturer, dealer, or collector licensed by the Secretary of the Treasury. The possession of "metal penetrating bullets'' during the commission of a crime is a felony.
It is unlawful to transfer firearms or ammunition to a person who is not lawfully entitled to possess such or to a person who is intoxicated.
Purchase
No state permit is required for the purchase of rifles and shotguns.
It is unlawful to buy, lease, borrow, exchange receive, sell, give away, deliver, or otherwise transfer a concealable firearm without a valid permit.
To obtain a handgun the buyer must produce a permit to purchase which is issued by the sheriff of the county where the applicant resides. A permit to purchase shall be issued by the sheriff if all the statements in the application are true, and the applicant:
1. is at least 21, a citizen of the U.S. and has resided in the state for at least 6 months;
2. has not been convicted of or currently charged with or indicted for a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year;
3. is not a fugitive from justice;
4. has not been dishonorably discharged from the U.S. armed forces;
5. is not habitually in an intoxicated or drugged condition; and
6. is not currently adjudged mentally incompetent and has not been committed to a mental health facility.
The sheriff shall issue the permit within 7 days. The permit shall contain the date of issuance, the name and address of the buyer, the nature of the transaction and a physical description of the applicant. The permit fee is not to exceed $10.00 and the permit is valid for only 30 days after the date of issuance.
If the permit is used, the seller shall return it to the sheriff within 30 days after its expiration, with a notation showing the date and manner of disposition and a description of the firearm, including the make, model and serial number. The sheriff shall keep a record of all permit applications and shall preserve all returned permits.
If the applicant is refused a permit, such refusal shall be in writing setting forth the reasons for denial and explaining the applicant's right to appeal. The denied applicant shall have the right of appeal by filing with the clerk of the small claims court within 10 days of receiving the written notice of denial.
If, at the court hearing, the applicant shows that he/she is entitled to the permit, the court shall issue an order to cause the issuance of the permit.
It is unlawful to transport, alter, or change a permit, or to obtain a permit upon false representation or to use another's permit.
Carry
It is unlawful to carry concealed "upon or about one's person'' any firearm. This does not apply to transporting a firearm in a nonfunctioning state or in an unloaded state when ammunition is not readily accessible, or a person in his dwelling unit or upon business premises over which he has possession, authority or control, or while traveling in a continuous journey peaceably through the state.
It is unlawful to carry any firearm openly or concealed into any church or assembly place for education, political, literary or social purposes, any election precinct on election day, any courtroom while court is in session, or any other public assemblage.
It is unlawful to carry any firearm when one is intoxicated.
It is unlawful to exhibit any firearm in a rude or threatening manner in the presence of one or more persons.
Antiques
Antique firearms, defined as "any firearm not designed or redesigned for using rim fire or conventional center fire ignition with fixed ammunition and manufactured in or before 1898 (including matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system or replica thereof, whether actually manufactured before or after the year 1898) and also any firearm using fixed ammunition manufactured in or before 1898, for which ammunition is no longer manufactured in the U.S. and is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade'' are exempt from the purchase requirements previously listed.
Machine Guns
It is unlawful to "sell, deliver, transport or have in actual possession or control any machine gun.'' This prohibition does not apply to peace officers or military personnel for their official use, or to an importer, manufacturer, dealer, or collector pursuant to federal law. A machine gun is defined as any firearm ``capable of discharging automatically and continuously loaded ammunition of any caliber in which ammunition is fed to such gun from or by means of clips, disks, drums, belts or other separable mechanical device.''
Miscellaneous
A mandatory minimum term of 3 years imprisonment is imposed on a person who commits a felony with the use or aid of a deadly weapon. The mandatory term is 5 years for a second offense and 10 years for any subsequent offense.
It is unlawful to sell, deliver, loan or barter any firearm to a minor without the consent of the parent or guardian.
It is unlawful to deface a firearm or to possess a defaced firearm.
It is unlawful to discharge a firearm while intoxicated, or within one hundred yards of an occupied school house, courthouse, or church building.
It is unlawful to shoot into a dwelling house, train, boat, motor vehicle or aircraft, outbuilding, or on, along or across a public highway.
No unit of local government shall adopt any order or ordinance concerning the sale, purchase, purchase delay, transfer, ownership, use, keeping, possession, bearing, transportation, licensing, permit, registration, taxation other than sales and compensating use taxes, or other controls on firearms, components, ammunition and supplies. Ordinances which regulate the open carrying of firearms readily capable of lethal use or the discharge of firearms within a jurisdiction are not prohibited.
SOURCE: Missouri Code Sections 571.010-571.150
===========================================
Firearms
Laws For
Illinois
As of March, 2000
A synopsis of state laws on purchase, possession and carrying of firearms.
PLEASE NOTE: In addition to state laws, the purchase, sale and (in certain circumstances) the possession and interstate transportation of firearms is regulated by the Gun Control Act of 1968 as amended by the Firearms Owners' Protection Act. Also, cities and localities may have their own firearms ordinances in addition to federal and state laws. Details may be obtained by contacting local law enforcement authorities, and by consulting the State Laws and Published Ordinances--Firearms, available from the U.S. Government Printing Office, Washington, D.C. 20402.
CAUTION: State firearms laws are subject to frequent change. The above summary is not to be considered as legal advice or a restatement of law. To determine the applicability of these laws to specific situations which you may encounter, you are strongly urged to consult a local attorney.
QUICK REFERENCE CHART
Rifles and Shotguns Handguns
Permit to Purchase
FOID Required1 FOID Required1
Registration of Firearms
No2 No2
Licensing of Owners
FOID Required1 FOID Required1
Permit to Carry
FOID Required1 FOID Required3
STATE CONSTITUTIONAL PROVISION
"Subject only to the police power, the right of the individual citizen to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed." Section 22, Article I of the Illinois Bill of Rights.4
POSSESSION
It is unlawful for any person to possess any firearm or ammunition unless he has obtained a Firearms Owner's Identification Card (FOID). A person convicted of a felony may not possess a firearm or ammunition unless such person has been granted relief by the Director of The Department of State Police.
It is unlawful to possess any rifle having one or more barrels less than 16 inches in length or a shotgun having one or more barrels less than 18 inches in length or any weapon made from a rifle or shotgun, if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches.
It is unlawful for any person under the age of 18 to possess a handgun, or concealable firearm.
It is unlawful for the following persons to possess a firearm or ammunition: under 21 who has been adjudged delinquent or been convicted of a misdemeanor other than a traffic offense; within the past 5 years has been a patient in a mental hospital; is mentally retarded; is a narcotic addict; or a convicted felon.
It is unlawful for any person to possess any firearm with intent to use it unlawfully against another. It is unlawful to possess any firearm in any place licensed to sell intoxicating beverages, or "at any public gathering held pursuant to a license issued by any governmental body," or at any public gathering (except a gun show) at which an admission is charged. An exception is provided for the owner, manager or an authorized employee of the specified establishments.
A person under the age of 21 is not required to have an FOID in order to possess a firearm or ammunition while under the immediate control of a parent, guardian or other adult who has a valid FOID.
It is unlawful to possess firearms or ammunition on the grounds or building of a school. Exempt are students in firearm training courses, parades, hunting, target shooting on school ranges, or otherwise with the consent of school authorities and which firearms are transported unloaded and enclosed in a suitable case, box, or transportation package.
NOTE: In the City of Chicago, it is unlawful to keep a rifle, shotgun, or handgun unless it has been registered with the Director of Revenue. This requirement applies to all firearms kept in Chicago whether the firearm was purchased in the city, or acquired elsewhere. All firearms brought into the city must be registered within ten days. Handguns may not be registered after 1982. The registration certificate must be carried simultaneously with the firearm, and exhibited upon demand of any police officer. In any prosecution under this section the burden of proof is on the city to prove that the firearm has been possessed in the city for 10 days or more.
REQUIREMENTS FOR FOID
Application for an FOID is made to the Illinois State Police, Firearm Owner's Identification Unit, Post Office Box 19233, Springfield, Illinois 62794-9233. Application forms can be obtained online at http://www.state.il.us/isp/isphpage.html or by calling the Firearms Control and Crime Statistics Bureau at (217)782-5015. An applicant is entitled to an FOID if he:
Is over 21 years of age. If under 21, he must have the written consent of his guardian. In such case, the guardian himself must not be ineligible for an FOID, and the applicant must never have been convicted of a misdemeanor or adjudged a delinquent.
Has never been convicted of a felony.
Is not a narcotics addict.
Has not been a patient in a mental hospital in the preceding five years.
Is not mentally retarded.
Is not an alien who is unlawfully present in the United States.
Is not subject to an existing order of protection prohibiting the possession of a firearm.
Has not been convicted within the past 5 years of battery, assault, aggravated assault, violation of an order of protection, or a substantially similar offense in another jurisdiction, in which a firearm was used or possessed.
Has not been convicted of domestic battery or a substantially similar offense in another jurisdiction committed on or after January 1, 1998.
Has not been convicted within the past 5 years of domestic battery or a substantially similar offense in another jurisdiction committed before January 1, 1998.
An FOID application must be accompanied by two recent photographs of the applicant, "such personal identifying information as may be required" by the Director of the Department, and payment of a $5.00 fee.5 The Department must approve or deny the FOID within 30 days, and is authorized to deny the FOID only if the applicant does not meet the listed qualifications. The FOID is valid for five years from the date of issuance. The Department of State Police shall forward to each FOID holder, a notice of expiration and a renewal notice application, 30 days prior to expiration.
An applicant who is denied an FOID may appeal the decision to the Director. If the Director upholds the Department's denial, the applicant may appeal to the courts. Any judicial review generally will be limited to the question of whether the Department's decision was "arbitrary and capricious."
PURCHASE
A buyer is required to show his FOID when purchasing any firearms or ammunition. Any seller is required to withhold delivery of any handgun for 72 hours, and of any rifle or shotgun for 24 hours, after application for purchase is made. The seller must retain for 10 years a record of the transfer, including a description of the firearm (including serial number), the identity of the buyer, and the buyer's FOID number.
A federally licensed dealer must also contact the Department of State Police and the state police must conduct a background check. There is a $2.00 fee for this service.
The waiting period does not apply to a buyer who is a dealer, a law enforcement officer, or a non-resident at a gun show recognized by the Illinois Department of State Police.
It is unlawful to sell or give any handgun to a person under 18, or any firearm to a person who is not eligible to obtain an FOID (see eligibility requirements under POSSES-SION).
CARRYING AND TRANSPORTATION IN A VEHICLE
It is unlawful to carry or possess any firearm in any vehicle or concealed on or about the person, except on one's land or in one's abode or fixed place of business. It is unlawful to carry or possess any firearm on or about one's person upon any public street, alley, or other public lands within the corporate limits of a city, village, or incorporated town, except when an invitee thereon or therein, for the purpose of the display of firearms or the lawful commerce in firearms, or except when on one's land or in one's abode or fixed place of business.
Exceptions are persons using their firearms on established target ranges; licensed hunters, trappers, or fishermen while engaged in their licensed activity; transportation of firearms that are broken down in a non-functioning state or are not immediately accessible (e.g., in the trunk of a car); and transportation, carrying, or possession of a firearm which is unloaded and enclosed in a case, firearm carrying box, shipping box, or other container, by the possessor of a valid FOID. Under the Wildlife Code, it is unlawful to have or carry any firearm in or on any vehicle or conveyance unless unloaded and enclosed in a case.
NON-RESIDENTS
A non-resident is permitted to possess a firearm without an FOID if it is unloaded and enclosed in a case, or if the nonresident is:
Hunting and has a non-resident hunting license, while in an area where hunting is permitted.
On a target range recognized by the Department of State Police.
At a gun show recognized by the Department of State Police.
Currently licensed or registered to possess a firearm in his state of residence.
Any resident of Iowa, Missouri, Indiana, Wisconsin or Kentucky, who is 18 years of age or older and who is not prohibited by the laws of Illinois, the state of his domicile, or the United States from obtaining, possessing or using a firearm, may purchase or obtain a rifle, shotgun or ammunition for a rifle or shotgun in Illinois. A non-resident may purchase ammunition.
ANTIQUES AND REPLICAS
An antique firearm which "the Department of State Police finds by reason of the date of manufacture, value, design, and other characteristics is primarily a collectors item and is not likely to be used as a weapon" is exempt from the above regulations on purchase.
MACHINE GUNS
It is unlawful to sell, manufacture, purchase, possess or carry any weapon from which more than one shot may be discharged by a single function of the trigger, including the frame or receiver of any such weapon.
It is unlawful to sell, manufacture, purchase, possess or carry any combination of parts designed or intended for use in converting any weapon into a machine gun, or any combination or parts from which a machine gun can be assembled.
There is an exception to the above prohibition, providing for the manufacture and sale of machine guns to law enforcement personnel only. This allows class 3 dealers to possess machine guns as long as they are for distribution only to law enforcement and military personnel provided such weapons are "broken down in a non-functioning state or not immediately accessible."
This prohibition does not apply to persons licensed to manufacture machine guns or ammunition under federal law and who are actually engaged in the business of manufacturing such weapons or ammunition, but only with respect to activities which are in the lawful scope of such business, such as the manufacture, transportation or testing of such weapons or ammunition.
MISCELLANEOUS
It is unlawful for any person to store or leave, within premises under his or her control, a firearm if the person knows or has reason to believe that a minor under the age of 14 years who does not have a Firearm Owners Identification Card is likely to gain access to the firearm without the lawful permission of the minor's parent, guardian, or person having charge of the minor, and the minor causes death or great bodily harm with the firearm, unless the firearm is: (1) secured by a device or mechanism, other than the firearm safety, designed to render a firearm temporarily inoperable; or (2) placed in a securely locked box or container; or (3) placed in some other location that a reasonable person would believe to be secure from a minor under the age of 14 years.
It is unlawful for a dealer to sell any handgun "having a barrel, slide, frame or receiver which is a die casting of zinc alloy or any other non-homogeneous metal which will melt or deform at a temperature of less than 800 degrees F."
It is unlawful to alter or obliterate any serial number, maker's name or other identifying mark on any firearm. Possession of a firearm with an altered or obliterated mark raises a legal presumption that the possessor committed the offense.
Any stolen weapon, if confiscated by police when no longer needed for evidentiary purposes, must be returned to the person entitled to possession, if known.
It is unlawful to carry or possess any firearm when a person is hooded or masked. Recent court cases have held that when a person is arrested for a gun-related crime and the gun is seized, if he is acquitted he may recover the firearm from the authorities.
It is unlawful to possess, manufacture or use any metal piercing or explosive bullet.
It is unlawful to possess a silencer.
It is unlawful to possess or store any firearm on land supported in whole or in part with state or federal funds administered through state agencies or in any building on such land without prior written permission from the chief security officer for such land or building. The chief security officer "must grant any reasonable request for permission."
CITATION: IL. Ann. Stat. ch. 38, para. 21-6, 24-1 et seq., and 83-1 et seq.; and ch. 61, para. 2.33
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Notes
1. Subject to municipal control, handguns have been banned in some municipalities.
2. Chicago requires registration of all firearms.
3. Carrying concealed is prohibited entirely; there is no permit to carry concealed.
4. The Sixth Illinois Constitutional Conventions Committee on Bill of Rights in their official commentary interpreted this provision in 1970 as a guarantee that "a citizen has the right to possess and make reasonable use of arms that law abiding citizens commonly employ for purposes of recreation or protection of person and property." Any use of the police power, the Committee said, that "attempted to ban all possession or use of such arms, or laws that subjected possession or use of such arms to regulations or taxes so onerous that all possession or use was effectively banned, would be invalid."
5. The photographic requirement may be waived for persons with religious objections.
Posted: 2000-03-23
[This message has been edited by RHarris (edited June 20, 2000).]
Missouri State Firearms Laws
PLEASE NOTE: In addition to state laws, the purchase, sale and (in certain circumstances) the possession and interstate transportation of firearms is regulated by the Gun Control Act of 1968 as amended by the Firearms Ownersí Protection Act. Also, cities and localities may have their own firearms ordinances in addition to federal and state laws. Details may be obtained by contacting local law enforcement authorities, and by consulting the State Laws and Published OrdinancesóFirearms, available from the U.S. Government Printing Office, Washington, D.C. 20402.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Missouri
(As of November, 1998)
QUICK REFERENCE CHART
Rifles and Shotguns Handguns
Permit to Purchase
No Yes
Registration of Firearms
No No
Licensing of Owners
No No
Permit to Carry
No No*
State Constitutional Provision
"That the right of every citizen to keep and bear arms in defense of his home, person and property, or when lawfully summoned in aid of the civil power, shall not be questioned; but this shall not justify the wearing of concealed weapons.'' Article 1, Section 23.
Possession
There are no state licensing requirements for the possession of a rifle, shotgun or handgun.
It is unlawful for a convicted felon, a fugitive from justice, an habitually intoxicated, or drugged person or one who is currently adjudicated mentally incompetent to possess any concealable firearm (firearms with a barrel length of less than 16 inches).
It is unlawful to possess, manufacture, transport, repair or sell any machine gun, rifle of less than 16 inch barrel length, shotgun of less than 18 inch barrel length, silencer, or explosive bullets unless incident to the performance of military duties or if an importer, manufacturer, dealer, or collector licensed by the Secretary of the Treasury. The possession of "metal penetrating bullets'' during the commission of a crime is a felony.
It is unlawful to transfer firearms or ammunition to a person who is not lawfully entitled to possess such or to a person who is intoxicated.
Purchase
No state permit is required for the purchase of rifles and shotguns.
It is unlawful to buy, lease, borrow, exchange receive, sell, give away, deliver, or otherwise transfer a concealable firearm without a valid permit.
To obtain a handgun the buyer must produce a permit to purchase which is issued by the sheriff of the county where the applicant resides. A permit to purchase shall be issued by the sheriff if all the statements in the application are true, and the applicant:
1. is at least 21, a citizen of the U.S. and has resided in the state for at least 6 months;
2. has not been convicted of or currently charged with or indicted for a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year;
3. is not a fugitive from justice;
4. has not been dishonorably discharged from the U.S. armed forces;
5. is not habitually in an intoxicated or drugged condition; and
6. is not currently adjudged mentally incompetent and has not been committed to a mental health facility.
The sheriff shall issue the permit within 7 days. The permit shall contain the date of issuance, the name and address of the buyer, the nature of the transaction and a physical description of the applicant. The permit fee is not to exceed $10.00 and the permit is valid for only 30 days after the date of issuance.
If the permit is used, the seller shall return it to the sheriff within 30 days after its expiration, with a notation showing the date and manner of disposition and a description of the firearm, including the make, model and serial number. The sheriff shall keep a record of all permit applications and shall preserve all returned permits.
If the applicant is refused a permit, such refusal shall be in writing setting forth the reasons for denial and explaining the applicant's right to appeal. The denied applicant shall have the right of appeal by filing with the clerk of the small claims court within 10 days of receiving the written notice of denial.
If, at the court hearing, the applicant shows that he/she is entitled to the permit, the court shall issue an order to cause the issuance of the permit.
It is unlawful to transport, alter, or change a permit, or to obtain a permit upon false representation or to use another's permit.
Carry
It is unlawful to carry concealed "upon or about one's person'' any firearm. This does not apply to transporting a firearm in a nonfunctioning state or in an unloaded state when ammunition is not readily accessible, or a person in his dwelling unit or upon business premises over which he has possession, authority or control, or while traveling in a continuous journey peaceably through the state.
It is unlawful to carry any firearm openly or concealed into any church or assembly place for education, political, literary or social purposes, any election precinct on election day, any courtroom while court is in session, or any other public assemblage.
It is unlawful to carry any firearm when one is intoxicated.
It is unlawful to exhibit any firearm in a rude or threatening manner in the presence of one or more persons.
Antiques
Antique firearms, defined as "any firearm not designed or redesigned for using rim fire or conventional center fire ignition with fixed ammunition and manufactured in or before 1898 (including matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system or replica thereof, whether actually manufactured before or after the year 1898) and also any firearm using fixed ammunition manufactured in or before 1898, for which ammunition is no longer manufactured in the U.S. and is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade'' are exempt from the purchase requirements previously listed.
Machine Guns
It is unlawful to "sell, deliver, transport or have in actual possession or control any machine gun.'' This prohibition does not apply to peace officers or military personnel for their official use, or to an importer, manufacturer, dealer, or collector pursuant to federal law. A machine gun is defined as any firearm ``capable of discharging automatically and continuously loaded ammunition of any caliber in which ammunition is fed to such gun from or by means of clips, disks, drums, belts or other separable mechanical device.''
Miscellaneous
A mandatory minimum term of 3 years imprisonment is imposed on a person who commits a felony with the use or aid of a deadly weapon. The mandatory term is 5 years for a second offense and 10 years for any subsequent offense.
It is unlawful to sell, deliver, loan or barter any firearm to a minor without the consent of the parent or guardian.
It is unlawful to deface a firearm or to possess a defaced firearm.
It is unlawful to discharge a firearm while intoxicated, or within one hundred yards of an occupied school house, courthouse, or church building.
It is unlawful to shoot into a dwelling house, train, boat, motor vehicle or aircraft, outbuilding, or on, along or across a public highway.
No unit of local government shall adopt any order or ordinance concerning the sale, purchase, purchase delay, transfer, ownership, use, keeping, possession, bearing, transportation, licensing, permit, registration, taxation other than sales and compensating use taxes, or other controls on firearms, components, ammunition and supplies. Ordinances which regulate the open carrying of firearms readily capable of lethal use or the discharge of firearms within a jurisdiction are not prohibited.
SOURCE: Missouri Code Sections 571.010-571.150
===========================================
Firearms
Laws For
Illinois
As of March, 2000
A synopsis of state laws on purchase, possession and carrying of firearms.
PLEASE NOTE: In addition to state laws, the purchase, sale and (in certain circumstances) the possession and interstate transportation of firearms is regulated by the Gun Control Act of 1968 as amended by the Firearms Owners' Protection Act. Also, cities and localities may have their own firearms ordinances in addition to federal and state laws. Details may be obtained by contacting local law enforcement authorities, and by consulting the State Laws and Published Ordinances--Firearms, available from the U.S. Government Printing Office, Washington, D.C. 20402.
CAUTION: State firearms laws are subject to frequent change. The above summary is not to be considered as legal advice or a restatement of law. To determine the applicability of these laws to specific situations which you may encounter, you are strongly urged to consult a local attorney.
QUICK REFERENCE CHART
Rifles and Shotguns Handguns
Permit to Purchase
FOID Required1 FOID Required1
Registration of Firearms
No2 No2
Licensing of Owners
FOID Required1 FOID Required1
Permit to Carry
FOID Required1 FOID Required3
STATE CONSTITUTIONAL PROVISION
"Subject only to the police power, the right of the individual citizen to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed." Section 22, Article I of the Illinois Bill of Rights.4
POSSESSION
It is unlawful for any person to possess any firearm or ammunition unless he has obtained a Firearms Owner's Identification Card (FOID). A person convicted of a felony may not possess a firearm or ammunition unless such person has been granted relief by the Director of The Department of State Police.
It is unlawful to possess any rifle having one or more barrels less than 16 inches in length or a shotgun having one or more barrels less than 18 inches in length or any weapon made from a rifle or shotgun, if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches.
It is unlawful for any person under the age of 18 to possess a handgun, or concealable firearm.
It is unlawful for the following persons to possess a firearm or ammunition: under 21 who has been adjudged delinquent or been convicted of a misdemeanor other than a traffic offense; within the past 5 years has been a patient in a mental hospital; is mentally retarded; is a narcotic addict; or a convicted felon.
It is unlawful for any person to possess any firearm with intent to use it unlawfully against another. It is unlawful to possess any firearm in any place licensed to sell intoxicating beverages, or "at any public gathering held pursuant to a license issued by any governmental body," or at any public gathering (except a gun show) at which an admission is charged. An exception is provided for the owner, manager or an authorized employee of the specified establishments.
A person under the age of 21 is not required to have an FOID in order to possess a firearm or ammunition while under the immediate control of a parent, guardian or other adult who has a valid FOID.
It is unlawful to possess firearms or ammunition on the grounds or building of a school. Exempt are students in firearm training courses, parades, hunting, target shooting on school ranges, or otherwise with the consent of school authorities and which firearms are transported unloaded and enclosed in a suitable case, box, or transportation package.
NOTE: In the City of Chicago, it is unlawful to keep a rifle, shotgun, or handgun unless it has been registered with the Director of Revenue. This requirement applies to all firearms kept in Chicago whether the firearm was purchased in the city, or acquired elsewhere. All firearms brought into the city must be registered within ten days. Handguns may not be registered after 1982. The registration certificate must be carried simultaneously with the firearm, and exhibited upon demand of any police officer. In any prosecution under this section the burden of proof is on the city to prove that the firearm has been possessed in the city for 10 days or more.
REQUIREMENTS FOR FOID
Application for an FOID is made to the Illinois State Police, Firearm Owner's Identification Unit, Post Office Box 19233, Springfield, Illinois 62794-9233. Application forms can be obtained online at http://www.state.il.us/isp/isphpage.html or by calling the Firearms Control and Crime Statistics Bureau at (217)782-5015. An applicant is entitled to an FOID if he:
Is over 21 years of age. If under 21, he must have the written consent of his guardian. In such case, the guardian himself must not be ineligible for an FOID, and the applicant must never have been convicted of a misdemeanor or adjudged a delinquent.
Has never been convicted of a felony.
Is not a narcotics addict.
Has not been a patient in a mental hospital in the preceding five years.
Is not mentally retarded.
Is not an alien who is unlawfully present in the United States.
Is not subject to an existing order of protection prohibiting the possession of a firearm.
Has not been convicted within the past 5 years of battery, assault, aggravated assault, violation of an order of protection, or a substantially similar offense in another jurisdiction, in which a firearm was used or possessed.
Has not been convicted of domestic battery or a substantially similar offense in another jurisdiction committed on or after January 1, 1998.
Has not been convicted within the past 5 years of domestic battery or a substantially similar offense in another jurisdiction committed before January 1, 1998.
An FOID application must be accompanied by two recent photographs of the applicant, "such personal identifying information as may be required" by the Director of the Department, and payment of a $5.00 fee.5 The Department must approve or deny the FOID within 30 days, and is authorized to deny the FOID only if the applicant does not meet the listed qualifications. The FOID is valid for five years from the date of issuance. The Department of State Police shall forward to each FOID holder, a notice of expiration and a renewal notice application, 30 days prior to expiration.
An applicant who is denied an FOID may appeal the decision to the Director. If the Director upholds the Department's denial, the applicant may appeal to the courts. Any judicial review generally will be limited to the question of whether the Department's decision was "arbitrary and capricious."
PURCHASE
A buyer is required to show his FOID when purchasing any firearms or ammunition. Any seller is required to withhold delivery of any handgun for 72 hours, and of any rifle or shotgun for 24 hours, after application for purchase is made. The seller must retain for 10 years a record of the transfer, including a description of the firearm (including serial number), the identity of the buyer, and the buyer's FOID number.
A federally licensed dealer must also contact the Department of State Police and the state police must conduct a background check. There is a $2.00 fee for this service.
The waiting period does not apply to a buyer who is a dealer, a law enforcement officer, or a non-resident at a gun show recognized by the Illinois Department of State Police.
It is unlawful to sell or give any handgun to a person under 18, or any firearm to a person who is not eligible to obtain an FOID (see eligibility requirements under POSSES-SION).
CARRYING AND TRANSPORTATION IN A VEHICLE
It is unlawful to carry or possess any firearm in any vehicle or concealed on or about the person, except on one's land or in one's abode or fixed place of business. It is unlawful to carry or possess any firearm on or about one's person upon any public street, alley, or other public lands within the corporate limits of a city, village, or incorporated town, except when an invitee thereon or therein, for the purpose of the display of firearms or the lawful commerce in firearms, or except when on one's land or in one's abode or fixed place of business.
Exceptions are persons using their firearms on established target ranges; licensed hunters, trappers, or fishermen while engaged in their licensed activity; transportation of firearms that are broken down in a non-functioning state or are not immediately accessible (e.g., in the trunk of a car); and transportation, carrying, or possession of a firearm which is unloaded and enclosed in a case, firearm carrying box, shipping box, or other container, by the possessor of a valid FOID. Under the Wildlife Code, it is unlawful to have or carry any firearm in or on any vehicle or conveyance unless unloaded and enclosed in a case.
NON-RESIDENTS
A non-resident is permitted to possess a firearm without an FOID if it is unloaded and enclosed in a case, or if the nonresident is:
Hunting and has a non-resident hunting license, while in an area where hunting is permitted.
On a target range recognized by the Department of State Police.
At a gun show recognized by the Department of State Police.
Currently licensed or registered to possess a firearm in his state of residence.
Any resident of Iowa, Missouri, Indiana, Wisconsin or Kentucky, who is 18 years of age or older and who is not prohibited by the laws of Illinois, the state of his domicile, or the United States from obtaining, possessing or using a firearm, may purchase or obtain a rifle, shotgun or ammunition for a rifle or shotgun in Illinois. A non-resident may purchase ammunition.
ANTIQUES AND REPLICAS
An antique firearm which "the Department of State Police finds by reason of the date of manufacture, value, design, and other characteristics is primarily a collectors item and is not likely to be used as a weapon" is exempt from the above regulations on purchase.
MACHINE GUNS
It is unlawful to sell, manufacture, purchase, possess or carry any weapon from which more than one shot may be discharged by a single function of the trigger, including the frame or receiver of any such weapon.
It is unlawful to sell, manufacture, purchase, possess or carry any combination of parts designed or intended for use in converting any weapon into a machine gun, or any combination or parts from which a machine gun can be assembled.
There is an exception to the above prohibition, providing for the manufacture and sale of machine guns to law enforcement personnel only. This allows class 3 dealers to possess machine guns as long as they are for distribution only to law enforcement and military personnel provided such weapons are "broken down in a non-functioning state or not immediately accessible."
This prohibition does not apply to persons licensed to manufacture machine guns or ammunition under federal law and who are actually engaged in the business of manufacturing such weapons or ammunition, but only with respect to activities which are in the lawful scope of such business, such as the manufacture, transportation or testing of such weapons or ammunition.
MISCELLANEOUS
It is unlawful for any person to store or leave, within premises under his or her control, a firearm if the person knows or has reason to believe that a minor under the age of 14 years who does not have a Firearm Owners Identification Card is likely to gain access to the firearm without the lawful permission of the minor's parent, guardian, or person having charge of the minor, and the minor causes death or great bodily harm with the firearm, unless the firearm is: (1) secured by a device or mechanism, other than the firearm safety, designed to render a firearm temporarily inoperable; or (2) placed in a securely locked box or container; or (3) placed in some other location that a reasonable person would believe to be secure from a minor under the age of 14 years.
It is unlawful for a dealer to sell any handgun "having a barrel, slide, frame or receiver which is a die casting of zinc alloy or any other non-homogeneous metal which will melt or deform at a temperature of less than 800 degrees F."
It is unlawful to alter or obliterate any serial number, maker's name or other identifying mark on any firearm. Possession of a firearm with an altered or obliterated mark raises a legal presumption that the possessor committed the offense.
Any stolen weapon, if confiscated by police when no longer needed for evidentiary purposes, must be returned to the person entitled to possession, if known.
It is unlawful to carry or possess any firearm when a person is hooded or masked. Recent court cases have held that when a person is arrested for a gun-related crime and the gun is seized, if he is acquitted he may recover the firearm from the authorities.
It is unlawful to possess, manufacture or use any metal piercing or explosive bullet.
It is unlawful to possess a silencer.
It is unlawful to possess or store any firearm on land supported in whole or in part with state or federal funds administered through state agencies or in any building on such land without prior written permission from the chief security officer for such land or building. The chief security officer "must grant any reasonable request for permission."
CITATION: IL. Ann. Stat. ch. 38, para. 21-6, 24-1 et seq., and 83-1 et seq.; and ch. 61, para. 2.33
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Notes
1. Subject to municipal control, handguns have been banned in some municipalities.
2. Chicago requires registration of all firearms.
3. Carrying concealed is prohibited entirely; there is no permit to carry concealed.
4. The Sixth Illinois Constitutional Conventions Committee on Bill of Rights in their official commentary interpreted this provision in 1970 as a guarantee that "a citizen has the right to possess and make reasonable use of arms that law abiding citizens commonly employ for purposes of recreation or protection of person and property." Any use of the police power, the Committee said, that "attempted to ban all possession or use of such arms, or laws that subjected possession or use of such arms to regulations or taxes so onerous that all possession or use was effectively banned, would be invalid."
5. The photographic requirement may be waived for persons with religious objections.
Posted: 2000-03-23
[This message has been edited by RHarris (edited June 20, 2000).]
I live in Illinois and that last post about says it. I've put my pistol case under the seat before, but I usually keep it in the trunk with the mags in my clothing bag. As long as you are just going through the state and don't plan on driving like an idiot, I wouldn't be too concerned. Just keep it out of sight.
David Scott
New member
In SUVs, vans and Station Wagons, which have no enclosed trunk, there's often a spare tire compartment under the floor that has enough room to at least keep your encased pistol out of sight. Also check the sides in back; the Ford Areostar I used to have had a cover for the rear windshield washer bottle and there was some extra space there.
Thanks, everybody. I forgot to mention that I do have a TX CHL, so I'm okay in 2 of my destination states, KY and IN (also 2 traveling states, AR and LA). The law in FL seems to be fairly reasonable about carrying in a vehicle, so I believe I'll be alright there as well (MS has a similar law allowing carry in a car).
Still leaves TN and AL. I figure I'm outta luck anyway in IL and MO. Darth, I'm with you, I don't drive aggressively (in spite of living in Houston) either. I'm sure the Mrs. and I would enjoy some friendly conversation with you and Jedi, but not in a jail in New Madrid, MO. I try not to draw attention to myself while on the road, not a lot of lane changes, etc. I also look fairly conservative, like just another fat early middle aged whiteboy who works with computers.
We'll just be cutting the southern corner of IL, it looks like Interstate all the way.
RickD, I heard that. I will not give consent to a search of my vehicle or my person. However, neither will I deceive an LEO or evade a question (my name isn't Bill). But that's just me. I do try as best as possible to minimize the length of the encounter and I'm always polite to LEO. Brings to mind another question, though- if an LEO asks, and I say yes, I've got a firearm, and tell him where it is, can he make the infamous "Probable Cause" from that?
Still leaves TN and AL. I figure I'm outta luck anyway in IL and MO. Darth, I'm with you, I don't drive aggressively (in spite of living in Houston) either. I'm sure the Mrs. and I would enjoy some friendly conversation with you and Jedi, but not in a jail in New Madrid, MO. I try not to draw attention to myself while on the road, not a lot of lane changes, etc. I also look fairly conservative, like just another fat early middle aged whiteboy who works with computers.
We'll just be cutting the southern corner of IL, it looks like Interstate all the way.
RickD, I heard that. I will not give consent to a search of my vehicle or my person. However, neither will I deceive an LEO or evade a question (my name isn't Bill). But that's just me. I do try as best as possible to minimize the length of the encounter and I'm always polite to LEO. Brings to mind another question, though- if an LEO asks, and I say yes, I've got a firearm, and tell him where it is, can he make the infamous "Probable Cause" from that?
Good for you my friend. Try this if you are serious and get asked about a gun:
"I am a Texas CHL holder. (Display permit) I have an unloaded gun in the back, locked in a case. The ammo is packed away with the magazines. I checked the laws before I got here." You have committed no crime, and the officer has no probable cause (not to say the wrong cop won't give you a hard time) for a search.
Good luck. I respect your decision and share your feelings. Your wife and family will respect you for it too, I am sure.
My name's not Bill either,
Ledbetter
"I am a Texas CHL holder. (Display permit) I have an unloaded gun in the back, locked in a case. The ammo is packed away with the magazines. I checked the laws before I got here." You have committed no crime, and the officer has no probable cause (not to say the wrong cop won't give you a hard time) for a search.
Good luck. I respect your decision and share your feelings. Your wife and family will respect you for it too, I am sure.
My name's not Bill either,
Ledbetter
Do you have a hunting rifle, or shotgun?
If so, bring it. When Joe Q. Publick-Servant asks you if you are carrying any firearm, "Yes sir, i have a hunting rifle/shotgun with me as i'm planning of enjoying the hunting in <you add the appropriate hunting local>."
Very rarely is a hunting rifle/shotgun seen as a "red flag" by the boys-in-blue, especially if you have a "hunting destination" in mind. You can then answer correctly, "Yes" and then just fail to mention the roscoe in the suitcase. Effectively you are hiding the pistol "out in the open."
A shotgun is a better defensive weapon anywhoo, and makes a good backup for the Mrs.
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~USP
"... I rejoice that America has resisted [The Stamp Act]. Three millions of people, so dead to all feelings of liberty as to voluntarily submit to being slaves, would have been fit instruments to make slaves of the rest of us." -- William Pitt, British Parliament, December 1765
If so, bring it. When Joe Q. Publick-Servant asks you if you are carrying any firearm, "Yes sir, i have a hunting rifle/shotgun with me as i'm planning of enjoying the hunting in <you add the appropriate hunting local>."
Very rarely is a hunting rifle/shotgun seen as a "red flag" by the boys-in-blue, especially if you have a "hunting destination" in mind. You can then answer correctly, "Yes" and then just fail to mention the roscoe in the suitcase. Effectively you are hiding the pistol "out in the open."
A shotgun is a better defensive weapon anywhoo, and makes a good backup for the Mrs.
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~USP
"... I rejoice that America has resisted [The Stamp Act]. Three millions of people, so dead to all feelings of liberty as to voluntarily submit to being slaves, would have been fit instruments to make slaves of the rest of us." -- William Pitt, British Parliament, December 1765
"if an LEO asks, and I say yes, I've got a firearm, and tell him where it is, can he make the infamous "Probable Cause" from that?"
Yes, they might. You'all better get used to playing 3-card-Monty with the police now before you need to.
If you are concerned about Illinois, avoid the state, you will be safer from criminals in that state whether they wear masks or badges.
If you must go through Illinois answer, "No". When he asks if you have a gun say "No." When he asks for your consent to search tell him your attorney would have a cow and charge you an extra $1,000 retainer, if he kept you on as a client at all.
Admit to nothing. Give him your state-issued traveling papers and if pressed with questions tell him your attorney would not approve of you engaging in conversation.
End of story...until you get into Arizona were most cops could give a rip.
Rick
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"Congress have no power to disarm the militia. Their swords, and every other terrible implement of the soldier, are the birth-right of an American." Tench Coxe 2/20/1788
Yes, they might. You'all better get used to playing 3-card-Monty with the police now before you need to.
If you are concerned about Illinois, avoid the state, you will be safer from criminals in that state whether they wear masks or badges.
If you must go through Illinois answer, "No". When he asks if you have a gun say "No." When he asks for your consent to search tell him your attorney would have a cow and charge you an extra $1,000 retainer, if he kept you on as a client at all.
Admit to nothing. Give him your state-issued traveling papers and if pressed with questions tell him your attorney would not approve of you engaging in conversation.
End of story...until you get into Arizona were most cops could give a rip.
Rick
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"Congress have no power to disarm the militia. Their swords, and every other terrible implement of the soldier, are the birth-right of an American." Tench Coxe 2/20/1788
Rick, I know that you're real serious about RKBA and 2nd Amendment issues. I am too. I just prefer to pick the battles I can win, and not get into a pissin' contest with an out-of-my home state LEO on the roadside with my family in the vehicle. (He/she still won't be getting my consent to a search, though). I do appreciate your comments and advice, as I am finding myself more and more concerned about traveling through "gununfriendly" territory such as Illinois. Believe me, I am still trying to figure out alternative routes.
USP45 has makes an interesting point, which for me would be valid. Family members that I will be visiting in KY all live on farms, and I have hunted there in previous years. Now, what do you hunt with a shotgun in July in KY? Although we can hunt nongame down here in TX (feral hogs, exotics, some others) and rabbits are open all year, nobody who's sane hunts in the summer (IMHO). Also, although my wife is an excellent pistol shot, better than me, and qualified as marksman in the Army, she doesn't shoot shotguns.
I found Ledbetter's post particularly interesting, and may try that one if stopped and pressed by LEO concerning guns, but likely only if pressed.
USP45 has makes an interesting point, which for me would be valid. Family members that I will be visiting in KY all live on farms, and I have hunted there in previous years. Now, what do you hunt with a shotgun in July in KY? Although we can hunt nongame down here in TX (feral hogs, exotics, some others) and rabbits are open all year, nobody who's sane hunts in the summer (IMHO). Also, although my wife is an excellent pistol shot, better than me, and qualified as marksman in the Army, she doesn't shoot shotguns.
I found Ledbetter's post particularly interesting, and may try that one if stopped and pressed by LEO concerning guns, but likely only if pressed.
David Scott
New member
There was an article in one of the RV magazines some time ago about police searching stopped vehicles. It seems some jurisdictions were targeting RVs with Florida plates (and there are lots of them) becuase they suspected some might be carrying drugs.
The upshot of the article is that a traffic stop is not probable cause to search a vehicle. They may ask, but you may also answer "no". If you refuse, they might say something like "do you have something to hide?" You're not required to give a reason why, so just say "no" again.
If they persist, their tactics will probably become more intimidating. Steel yourself and ask if you are being taken into custody. Since they have no probable cause, they will probably say no, at which point you tell them, "have a nice day, bye". Make it clear that they'll have to take you in custody, read you your rights and let you call your lawyer before they search.
If you say yes, you will probably be there for hours while they pull up carpet, unscrew panels and have the dogs sniff the whole thing over.
The upshot of the article is that a traffic stop is not probable cause to search a vehicle. They may ask, but you may also answer "no". If you refuse, they might say something like "do you have something to hide?" You're not required to give a reason why, so just say "no" again.
If they persist, their tactics will probably become more intimidating. Steel yourself and ask if you are being taken into custody. Since they have no probable cause, they will probably say no, at which point you tell them, "have a nice day, bye". Make it clear that they'll have to take you in custody, read you your rights and let you call your lawyer before they search.
If you say yes, you will probably be there for hours while they pull up carpet, unscrew panels and have the dogs sniff the whole thing over.
ckurts,
If I may offer some general advise that I previously posted on TFL concerning a similar matter.
Instructions For Contact With Agents Of The United States Government
1. Be polite and courteous at all times!
2. Request positive identification from the agent. Prior to any discussion, make a notation of the agent’s name, address, work telephone, and the name of his supervisor. If not certain of the identity of the agent, call his office or superior before continuing the interview.
3. Ask for a statement (verbal or written) from the agent that explains the scope of the interview and the reason you are being contacted.
4. Express willingness to cooperate, but request that the agent schedule an appointment with you at a more convenient time.
5. Request that a future meeting be held at the agent’s office (not at your residence or place of business).
6. Make no statements without the advice of legal counsel.
7. Sign no papers without the advice of legal counsel.
8. Do not consent to any voluntary search of your person, residence or automobile unless you have first been advised by your legal counsel.
9. Unless you have been advised that you are under arrest, you may terminate the interview at any time and leave!
10. REMEMBER, Clients create 90% of their own problems by making statements to agents before seeking the advice of counsel!
11. KEEP YOUR MOUTH CLOSED!
As an ex-Eagle Scout, I firmly believe in the motto; BE PREPARED.
A few other prudent steps that may prove helpful;
1. Carry a small mini-cassette tape recorder in your vehicle at all times. Fresh batteries and extra tapes are a necessity. (A tape recorder to a rouge cop is like a cross is to Dracula.)
2. A small cheap camera, or better yet a small video camera, may prove very useful in the event of an unlawful search.
3. Either your attorney’s business card or his number programmed into your cell phone is a must have in the event things turn ugly.
4. If I may recommend reading “You and The Police” by Boston T. Party. This small book is very informative and can be read in one setting. It is available at Amazon.com for about 15 bucks.
5. A locked, metal container (briefcase) used to secure personal items. Generally, this cannot be opened without a warrant specifying what is to be seized.
Skyhawk
If I may offer some general advise that I previously posted on TFL concerning a similar matter.
Instructions For Contact With Agents Of The United States Government
1. Be polite and courteous at all times!
2. Request positive identification from the agent. Prior to any discussion, make a notation of the agent’s name, address, work telephone, and the name of his supervisor. If not certain of the identity of the agent, call his office or superior before continuing the interview.
3. Ask for a statement (verbal or written) from the agent that explains the scope of the interview and the reason you are being contacted.
4. Express willingness to cooperate, but request that the agent schedule an appointment with you at a more convenient time.
5. Request that a future meeting be held at the agent’s office (not at your residence or place of business).
6. Make no statements without the advice of legal counsel.
7. Sign no papers without the advice of legal counsel.
8. Do not consent to any voluntary search of your person, residence or automobile unless you have first been advised by your legal counsel.
9. Unless you have been advised that you are under arrest, you may terminate the interview at any time and leave!
10. REMEMBER, Clients create 90% of their own problems by making statements to agents before seeking the advice of counsel!
11. KEEP YOUR MOUTH CLOSED!
As an ex-Eagle Scout, I firmly believe in the motto; BE PREPARED.
A few other prudent steps that may prove helpful;
1. Carry a small mini-cassette tape recorder in your vehicle at all times. Fresh batteries and extra tapes are a necessity. (A tape recorder to a rouge cop is like a cross is to Dracula.)
2. A small cheap camera, or better yet a small video camera, may prove very useful in the event of an unlawful search.
3. Either your attorney’s business card or his number programmed into your cell phone is a must have in the event things turn ugly.
4. If I may recommend reading “You and The Police” by Boston T. Party. This small book is very informative and can be read in one setting. It is available at Amazon.com for about 15 bucks.
5. A locked, metal container (briefcase) used to secure personal items. Generally, this cannot be opened without a warrant specifying what is to be seized.
Skyhawk
While I agree with Skyhawk's advice, I think it should be pointed out that it is often unwise to make a mountain out of a molehill. Numbers 2,3 and 4 are questionable for use during a traffic stop, IMNSHO.
Moreover, the majority of cops either are good cops or don't want to make any more work for themselves than necessary or both. For added certainty, don't fit "the profile." This is what I do:
1) Bring your wife's print luggage, not your black ballistic nylon carry-on.
2) Drive during daylight hours on major highways whenever possible.
3) Does your wife like to drive?
4) Keep the passenger comparment of your SUV uncluttered so an officer can shine his light in and see that nothing is within your reach.
5) Pay attention to speed limit changes; obey all laws.
6) et cetera. Anyone have any others. LEO's?
Moreover, the majority of cops either are good cops or don't want to make any more work for themselves than necessary or both. For added certainty, don't fit "the profile." This is what I do:
1) Bring your wife's print luggage, not your black ballistic nylon carry-on.
2) Drive during daylight hours on major highways whenever possible.
3) Does your wife like to drive?
4) Keep the passenger comparment of your SUV uncluttered so an officer can shine his light in and see that nothing is within your reach.
5) Pay attention to speed limit changes; obey all laws.
6) et cetera. Anyone have any others. LEO's?
David and others, I've lived fairly close to the border here in TX and have had my own vehicle and ones I was in gone over by drug dogs at least 10 times by Border Patrol. And although I've never had the pleasure myself, it seems like every time I'm on an Interstate (outside of a city) I see somebody pulled over having their vehicle searched by DPS or some county's sheriff's dep't.
Skyhawk, #1,6,7,8,11 are all givens. I have not used an attorney for other than real estate for many years, so I don't have one but I don't think I'll "let that slip out in an interview"! I had not thought about the tape recorder business but my wife and I both carry little disposable cameras in case of an accident (had a friend who learned that trick the hard way).
Sorry, Ledbetter, but we just have regular old luggage, no floral prints or black tactical. Wife doesn't mind driving but doesn't like to hear control freak hubby's frightened sounds and is distracted by his foot and arm motions. As I alluded to before, I try not to draw attention and I don't think my appearance really fits a "profile". As for keeping the interior uncluttered, well, 2 out of 3 ain't bad.
Skyhawk, #1,6,7,8,11 are all givens. I have not used an attorney for other than real estate for many years, so I don't have one but I don't think I'll "let that slip out in an interview"! I had not thought about the tape recorder business but my wife and I both carry little disposable cameras in case of an accident (had a friend who learned that trick the hard way).
Sorry, Ledbetter, but we just have regular old luggage, no floral prints or black tactical. Wife doesn't mind driving but doesn't like to hear control freak hubby's frightened sounds and is distracted by his foot and arm motions. As I alluded to before, I try not to draw attention and I don't think my appearance really fits a "profile". As for keeping the interior uncluttered, well, 2 out of 3 ain't bad.
P
PreserveFreedom
Guest
Illinois is a corrupt, Socialist, anti-gun state. That is alot of the reason I moved out of there over a year ago and I will never return. According to the NRA website, Federal Law protects you if you are travelling from a place where you can legally posess to a place where you can legally posess. I believe it says in the trunk, but if no trunk, I would keep it in the luggage. (Actually, *I* would keep one in my pocket but I take chances.)