Can you carry concealed at the gun show?
- Thread starter Jonpod
- Start date
hksigwalther
New member
Huh. Interesting question. Here in OH, all of the gun shows I go to specify all guns must be unloaded within the building(s). This is certainly for the guns on display and/or for sale, but I'm not sure if this would extend to CCWs as there is no CCW in OH (yet - hopefully). I'm sure if the policeman at the enterance wanted to, he could interpret the rule to cover CCWs also.
I would like to see what the responses will be.
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- Ron V.
I would like to see what the responses will be.
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- Ron V.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by sjones:
In texas they must be unloaded even if you have a ccw. They have a big sign saying so and they are inspected as you go in the door and they ask you if you have any ammo on you. sj[/quote]
Unless the sign meets the requirements of PC 30.06 (specific language, letter size, and bilingual) such a sign is meaningless to holders of a valid CHL. The legislature spelled this out very clearly so, for example, a handwritten "no guns" sign or some ambiguous other sign would have no legal standing.
I heard a few shows tried going the PC 30.06 route, and attendence all but vanished.
By the way, in Texas, it's a CHL, not a "ccw."
In texas they must be unloaded even if you have a ccw. They have a big sign saying so and they are inspected as you go in the door and they ask you if you have any ammo on you. sj[/quote]
Unless the sign meets the requirements of PC 30.06 (specific language, letter size, and bilingual) such a sign is meaningless to holders of a valid CHL. The legislature spelled this out very clearly so, for example, a handwritten "no guns" sign or some ambiguous other sign would have no legal standing.
I heard a few shows tried going the PC 30.06 route, and attendence all but vanished.
By the way, in Texas, it's a CHL, not a "ccw."
It is inconsistent to think that retail stores should let us carry, but gun shows are off limits. I know they say "our insurance" but so can a retail store. We don't trust ourselves when we prohibit carry in gun shows and gun shops and then gripe about gun restrictions in restaurants, etc. Jerry
Gun owners disarming gun owners. Oh the irony.
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The Alcove
I twist the facts until they tell the truth. -Some intellectual sadist
The Bill of Rights is a document of brilliance, a document of wisdom, and it is the ultimate law, spoken or not, for the very concept of a society that holds liberty above the desire for ever greater power. -Me
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The Alcove
I twist the facts until they tell the truth. -Some intellectual sadist
The Bill of Rights is a document of brilliance, a document of wisdom, and it is the ultimate law, spoken or not, for the very concept of a society that holds liberty above the desire for ever greater power. -Me
I think this was discussed here many moons ago. I didn't at first, but now I can see the wisdom of not allowing loaded firearms into gunshows. The Texas State Rifle Association even put out an article in their monthly publication defending that practice. As careful as we all are, it is just not safe having loaded guns in gunshows. Can't you just see a bunch of CHL holders getting together showing off each other's pieces... then Henry, when he is looking at Ed's fine pistol wants to dry fire it and BOOM!!! Unlike everywhere else, too many people assume that all guns at gun shows are unloaded. Mix in a few loaded guns and it can mean trouble. Accidental discharges, even when no one is hurt, is something that gun shows just don't need right now!
The cost of insurance for these shows is probably another consideration.
Joe
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NRA Joe's Second Amendment Discussion Forum
http://Second.Amendment.Homepage.com
The cost of insurance for these shows is probably another consideration.
Joe
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NRA Joe's Second Amendment Discussion Forum
http://Second.Amendment.Homepage.com
Gopher .45
New member
A lot of what is getting discussed here concerns the differences between rules and laws. Most shows have the rule that guns have to be unloaded and there is some merit for this rule. At the same time, as Hank B and others pointed out, that in places like Texas, unless there is the proper sign (and the proper sign having the proper laws behind it), then you can carry until you get made and then you have to do what the owners/leasors request or face trespassing charges. No where in the Texas handgun regulations does it cover gun shows.
As EnochGale said, if you are stupid enough to take out your carry weapon at the show, then you should get busted, but that statement goes for anywhere in public as well.
Use common sense and also remember that not all the people at gun shows are safety-minded and law-abiding good guys and gals. Wouldn't you feel rather stupid if TSHTF at a gun show, a place full of guns and ammo, and all you had on you were a bunch of unloaded and nylonstrap-locked guns?
Sorry Jonpod that this does not answer your question for Virginia, but at least it may help you to consider the differences between rules and actual laws.
As EnochGale said, if you are stupid enough to take out your carry weapon at the show, then you should get busted, but that statement goes for anywhere in public as well.
Use common sense and also remember that not all the people at gun shows are safety-minded and law-abiding good guys and gals. Wouldn't you feel rather stupid if TSHTF at a gun show, a place full of guns and ammo, and all you had on you were a bunch of unloaded and nylonstrap-locked guns?
Sorry Jonpod that this does not answer your question for Virginia, but at least it may help you to consider the differences between rules and actual laws.
NRAlife said:
Can't you just see a bunch of CHL holders getting together showing off
each other's pieces... then Henry, when he is looking at Ed's fine pistol wants to dry fire it and BOOM!!!
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Unfortunately, this is a perfect argument for gun control. CHLs are so stupid and untrained that they violate all basic rules.
If that is the level of intelligence of CHLs - then there should be none.
Your IQ should not drop when you enter the gun show, should it?
Also, I remember this in the past debates - someone said -
"You assume gun buyers are so stupid that you can't trust them around yourself with guns - then you sell them a gun to take home and carry in public."
I was impressed by that argument.
Can't you just see a bunch of CHL holders getting together showing off
each other's pieces... then Henry, when he is looking at Ed's fine pistol wants to dry fire it and BOOM!!!
---
Unfortunately, this is a perfect argument for gun control. CHLs are so stupid and untrained that they violate all basic rules.
If that is the level of intelligence of CHLs - then there should be none.
Your IQ should not drop when you enter the gun show, should it?
Also, I remember this in the past debates - someone said -
"You assume gun buyers are so stupid that you can't trust them around yourself with guns - then you sell them a gun to take home and carry in public."
I was impressed by that argument.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by sjones:
HankB,sorry if I ticked you off for some reason. By the way I do have my "CHL". I try obeying the law as much as I can and have never tried walking right on by the policemen doing the inspecting as I don't want to take a chance on losing it.[/quote]
sjones, you didn't tick me off. I was just trying to clarify that the law in Texas (which I, too, try to obey!) specifies specific signage. The "all guns must be unloaded" sign has no LAW behind it.
EnochGale, nralife, and others: Concealed means CONCEALED. When carrying, you DON'T take it out at a gunshow or elsewhere, (it might be called "brandishing" even at a gun show) or tell anyone you're carrying, unless specifically asked by an LEO...and in Texas, the circumstances in which you have to inform an LEO that you're carrying are spelled out in the law.
Gopher .45 is right in his comments about "trespass" law. But if you get "made" you're not properly concealed!
Sometimes there's one or more uniformed LEO's present at the gunshows I frequent, but I've never seen them actively participating in admitting people, checking guns, or whatever. They usually just browse the displays, eat donuts (!) and ogle the women...
HankB,sorry if I ticked you off for some reason. By the way I do have my "CHL". I try obeying the law as much as I can and have never tried walking right on by the policemen doing the inspecting as I don't want to take a chance on losing it.[/quote]
sjones, you didn't tick me off. I was just trying to clarify that the law in Texas (which I, too, try to obey!) specifies specific signage. The "all guns must be unloaded" sign has no LAW behind it.
EnochGale, nralife, and others: Concealed means CONCEALED. When carrying, you DON'T take it out at a gunshow or elsewhere, (it might be called "brandishing" even at a gun show) or tell anyone you're carrying, unless specifically asked by an LEO...and in Texas, the circumstances in which you have to inform an LEO that you're carrying are spelled out in the law.
Gopher .45 is right in his comments about "trespass" law. But if you get "made" you're not properly concealed!
Sometimes there's one or more uniformed LEO's present at the gunshows I frequent, but I've never seen them actively participating in admitting people, checking guns, or whatever. They usually just browse the displays, eat donuts (!) and ogle the women...
EnochGale,
If you are going to quote me, please do it in context. I gave a reason for what I said, but you chopped off that part.
Can't you just see a bunch of CHL holders getting together showing off each other's pieces... then Henry, when he is looking at Ed's fine pistol wants to dry fire it and BOOM!!! Unlike everywhere else, too many people assume that all guns at gun shows are unloaded. Mix in a few loaded guns and it can mean trouble. Accidental discharges, even when no one is hurt, is something that gun shows just don't need right now!
I never meant to impugne the menatlity of CHL holders and I don't think I did. We need to do EVERYTHING possible to prevent accidental discharges at these shows. If anyone were to ever get hurt at one, the liberal press would have a field day trashing gun shows. I know I didn't make my points as well as Jim Nicholson former past president of the Texas State Rifle Association and current NRA board member did... I'll see if I can't find the article he wrote about this and type it up for you guys.
Joe
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NRA Joe's Second Amendment Discussion Forum
http://Second.Amendment.Homepage.com
[This message has been edited by nralife (edited October 08, 2000).]
If you are going to quote me, please do it in context. I gave a reason for what I said, but you chopped off that part.
Can't you just see a bunch of CHL holders getting together showing off each other's pieces... then Henry, when he is looking at Ed's fine pistol wants to dry fire it and BOOM!!! Unlike everywhere else, too many people assume that all guns at gun shows are unloaded. Mix in a few loaded guns and it can mean trouble. Accidental discharges, even when no one is hurt, is something that gun shows just don't need right now!
I never meant to impugne the menatlity of CHL holders and I don't think I did. We need to do EVERYTHING possible to prevent accidental discharges at these shows. If anyone were to ever get hurt at one, the liberal press would have a field day trashing gun shows. I know I didn't make my points as well as Jim Nicholson former past president of the Texas State Rifle Association and current NRA board member did... I'll see if I can't find the article he wrote about this and type it up for you guys.
Joe
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NRA Joe's Second Amendment Discussion Forum
http://Second.Amendment.Homepage.com
[This message has been edited by nralife (edited October 08, 2000).]
(Okay, I typed it out for your reading pleasure 
)
President's Message
I have had a lot of communication with gun owners lately who were unhappy that they have to temporarily give up the right to carry in order to get into gun shows. The NRA Annul Meeting in Dallas created quite a furor with some of the Internet crowd. The meeting was held in the Dallas Convention Hall (where the city bans handguns), in the Exhibit Hall and even in the parking lot. Many people felt like they have been betrayed by the NRA which supported the TSRA in fighting for the right to carry but subsequently banned handguns at its own meeting.
Not being able to wear a concealed handgun into gun shows seems to be bothering a lot of gun owners. I decided to share a few of my observations and opinions on this matter.
Every gun show that I have ever attended has had personnel checking all firearms going into the show to make sure that they were not loaded. Most shows physically disable any guns going inside with nylon straps so that the firearms either can't be loaded or the action can't be closed. The purpose of this procedure is to insure the safety of all attendees by protecting them from the potential consequences of an accidental discharge. This was going on long before the CHL law was passed.
Now that the Texas Legislature has granted some of us the right to carry a concealed handgun for self defense, we have become very proud and very protective of that right. Many of us are active in trying to convince businesses that it is not necessarily in their best interests or in the best interests of their customers to ban handguns from their premises.
At this same time, it is important to remember that businesses which choose to ban handguns have every right to do so. Many of the businesses ban because they believe that they limit potential liability.
We try to convince them that by banning they are actually increasing their liability exposure diametrically to their objective. We further tell them that we believe this so strongly, that we will no longer do business with them because it exposes us as customers to greater risks. We promise to pass this wisdom along to our friends and family, also. The final decision to ban or not to ban rests with the business owner.
We need to look at gun shows from a different perspective from the way we look at businesses. At a gun show there is wall-to-wall gun handling in an environment jammed with people. Everybody depends on the gun show sponsors to make sure there are no loaded guns inside the building. Treating every gun as if it were loaded and not pointing the muzzle at anything you don't intend to shoot are our normal safety rules. These rules are almost impossible to practice in the gun show environment. Sure, you see a lot of people opening cylinders and bolts and locking slides back peering into chambers, but it's not too long before somebody is dry firing or inadvertently pointing the muzzle of an exhibited firearm at another person somewhere in the building.
If a dozen or so people with loaded concealed handguns were intermingled with a gun show crowd, the stage would be set for a catastrophic accident. If those guns remained concealed, like they do under normal circumstances every day all over Texas, then there would be no problem. That's harder to do in a gun show atmosphere. After all, we are among friends and peers, people that share our affinity to firearms and for the most part favor the CHL law. There is more temptation to show our choice of a carry gun and maybe even let the other guy feel of it to see if our choice might not be their choice also. Or, maybe there have been modifications to improve the carry gun such as a trigger job, tritium sights, or grips. There are features that are safely shared at the range or across the kitchen table, but not at a gun show.
I use the term "catastrophic accident" above because that is exactly what any accidental discharge would be at a gun show. Multiple gun shot injuries would likely result. Expensive lawsuits would be filed. Even if there were no injuries, an accident would still be catastrophic. Media coverage would settle like the plague over future gun shows. City councils would certainly react adversely to allowing further gun shows on city property. Damaging legislation could be introduced.
The best way to prevent this from happening is to continue following the policies that the gun shows and the NRA Exhibit Hall have followed forever. These rules inconvenience us a little, but at least gun shows have a good safety record. Yes, we are exposed in the parking lot, but no more than we have been for years. When I posted some of these opinions recently on the Internet, and opinions are all that I represent them to be, I had a private e-mail from a gun show sponsor in Atlantic City who thanked me for speaking out on the issue. That gave me some assurance that I was on the right track.
Jim Nicholson
TSRA President
This message was printed in the May/June 1996 issue of the TSRA Sportsman, the official publication of the Texas State Rile Association.
------------------
NRA Joe's Second Amendment Discussion Forum
http://Second.Amendment.Homepage.com
)President's Message
I have had a lot of communication with gun owners lately who were unhappy that they have to temporarily give up the right to carry in order to get into gun shows. The NRA Annul Meeting in Dallas created quite a furor with some of the Internet crowd. The meeting was held in the Dallas Convention Hall (where the city bans handguns), in the Exhibit Hall and even in the parking lot. Many people felt like they have been betrayed by the NRA which supported the TSRA in fighting for the right to carry but subsequently banned handguns at its own meeting.
Not being able to wear a concealed handgun into gun shows seems to be bothering a lot of gun owners. I decided to share a few of my observations and opinions on this matter.
Every gun show that I have ever attended has had personnel checking all firearms going into the show to make sure that they were not loaded. Most shows physically disable any guns going inside with nylon straps so that the firearms either can't be loaded or the action can't be closed. The purpose of this procedure is to insure the safety of all attendees by protecting them from the potential consequences of an accidental discharge. This was going on long before the CHL law was passed.
Now that the Texas Legislature has granted some of us the right to carry a concealed handgun for self defense, we have become very proud and very protective of that right. Many of us are active in trying to convince businesses that it is not necessarily in their best interests or in the best interests of their customers to ban handguns from their premises.
At this same time, it is important to remember that businesses which choose to ban handguns have every right to do so. Many of the businesses ban because they believe that they limit potential liability.
We try to convince them that by banning they are actually increasing their liability exposure diametrically to their objective. We further tell them that we believe this so strongly, that we will no longer do business with them because it exposes us as customers to greater risks. We promise to pass this wisdom along to our friends and family, also. The final decision to ban or not to ban rests with the business owner.
We need to look at gun shows from a different perspective from the way we look at businesses. At a gun show there is wall-to-wall gun handling in an environment jammed with people. Everybody depends on the gun show sponsors to make sure there are no loaded guns inside the building. Treating every gun as if it were loaded and not pointing the muzzle at anything you don't intend to shoot are our normal safety rules. These rules are almost impossible to practice in the gun show environment. Sure, you see a lot of people opening cylinders and bolts and locking slides back peering into chambers, but it's not too long before somebody is dry firing or inadvertently pointing the muzzle of an exhibited firearm at another person somewhere in the building.
If a dozen or so people with loaded concealed handguns were intermingled with a gun show crowd, the stage would be set for a catastrophic accident. If those guns remained concealed, like they do under normal circumstances every day all over Texas, then there would be no problem. That's harder to do in a gun show atmosphere. After all, we are among friends and peers, people that share our affinity to firearms and for the most part favor the CHL law. There is more temptation to show our choice of a carry gun and maybe even let the other guy feel of it to see if our choice might not be their choice also. Or, maybe there have been modifications to improve the carry gun such as a trigger job, tritium sights, or grips. There are features that are safely shared at the range or across the kitchen table, but not at a gun show.
I use the term "catastrophic accident" above because that is exactly what any accidental discharge would be at a gun show. Multiple gun shot injuries would likely result. Expensive lawsuits would be filed. Even if there were no injuries, an accident would still be catastrophic. Media coverage would settle like the plague over future gun shows. City councils would certainly react adversely to allowing further gun shows on city property. Damaging legislation could be introduced.
The best way to prevent this from happening is to continue following the policies that the gun shows and the NRA Exhibit Hall have followed forever. These rules inconvenience us a little, but at least gun shows have a good safety record. Yes, we are exposed in the parking lot, but no more than we have been for years. When I posted some of these opinions recently on the Internet, and opinions are all that I represent them to be, I had a private e-mail from a gun show sponsor in Atlantic City who thanked me for speaking out on the issue. That gave me some assurance that I was on the right track.
Jim Nicholson
TSRA President
This message was printed in the May/June 1996 issue of the TSRA Sportsman, the official publication of the Texas State Rile Association.
------------------
NRA Joe's Second Amendment Discussion Forum
http://Second.Amendment.Homepage.com
nralife,
I don't "buy it." I agree with EnochGale. If one is going to carry concealed he should not in any circumstances except true self defense draw his gun. He should not show it and if he does he should get the penalty. We want the WalMarts to accept our CHL and we say that we are mature enough to properly behave. Then the gun show folks say that we aren't. Obviously some of you accept that we aren't mature enough to carry at gunshows. I think it is nonsense. Jerry
I don't "buy it." I agree with EnochGale. If one is going to carry concealed he should not in any circumstances except true self defense draw his gun. He should not show it and if he does he should get the penalty. We want the WalMarts to accept our CHL and we say that we are mature enough to properly behave. Then the gun show folks say that we aren't. Obviously some of you accept that we aren't mature enough to carry at gunshows. I think it is nonsense. Jerry