I was at a gun dealer recently with a gun I intended to trade a fellow was there and offered to buy the gun.well to make a long story short he was not a resident of my state (tennessee) but was from an ajointing state (north carolina). I refused to sell him the gun because I thought it was not legal, but was later told by a friend of mine that since neither of us had a FFL licence that the sell was perfectly legal even though he was from another state......can anyone help me on this one.
CAN I LEGALLY MAKE THIS SALE?
- Thread starter RON 1
- Start date
Your friend is totally incorrect. Private sales are only allowed intra-state. Interstate sales are only allowed for long guns, and then the seller must be an FFL, and he must ensure that the sale meets all requirements of state law in BOTH states. This can be confirmed by checking the ATF site on line.
If you like you can muddle through the US code here: http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/922.html
From my non-lawyerly reading of it, your transaction would be legal unless prohibited by your state law.
Dick
From my non-lawyerly reading of it, your transaction would be legal unless prohibited by your state law.
Dick
NOT legal:
It shall be unlawful
(5) for any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) to transfer, sell, trade, give, transport, or deliver any firearm to any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in which the transferor resides; except that this paragraph shall not apply to (A) the transfer, transportation, or delivery of a firearm made to carry out a bequest of a firearm to, or an acquisition by intestate succession of a firearm by, a person who is permitted to acquire or possess a firearm under the laws of the State of his residence, and (B) the loan or rental of a firearm to any person for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes;
You can loan it to him for hunting or if you die you can leave it to him, but you can't transfer it to him.
It shall be unlawful
(5) for any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) to transfer, sell, trade, give, transport, or deliver any firearm to any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in which the transferor resides; except that this paragraph shall not apply to (A) the transfer, transportation, or delivery of a firearm made to carry out a bequest of a firearm to, or an acquisition by intestate succession of a firearm by, a person who is permitted to acquire or possess a firearm under the laws of the State of his residence, and (B) the loan or rental of a firearm to any person for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes;
You can loan it to him for hunting or if you die you can leave it to him, but you can't transfer it to him.
sw627pc
You are almost correct, interstate sales are legal for long guns AND handguns if the gun(s) being sold are shipped to an FFL for the transfer.
If interstate sales on handguns were illegal, then Wilson Combat, Les Baer, Manufacturers, etc are all breaking the law when shipping handguns state to state. If you ship UPS, you must ship it overnight RED LABEL. Federal Express is definitely my preferred carrier.
Some states (like Pennsylvania
) requires an instant check done on ALL handgun purchases. Long guns can be sold privately without a background check.
You are almost correct, interstate sales are legal for long guns AND handguns if the gun(s) being sold are shipped to an FFL for the transfer.
If interstate sales on handguns were illegal, then Wilson Combat, Les Baer, Manufacturers, etc are all breaking the law when shipping handguns state to state. If you ship UPS, you must ship it overnight RED LABEL. Federal Express is definitely my preferred carrier.
Some states (like Pennsylvania
) requires an instant check done on ALL handgun purchases. Long guns can be sold privately without a background check.ArmySon,
I am aware of that legality, however, for legal purposes, the FFL in the first state is selling the gun to the second FFL who is then selling it to the retail buyer. You cannot buy a handgun in a "foreign" state directly from the FFL dealer the way you can a long gun. (I realize in most cases the intermediate FFL is only doing paperwork, but the legal fiction is that HE is selling you the gun). Regardless, interstate private party sells are NOT legal (in fact they are a felony under Federal law).
I am aware of that legality, however, for legal purposes, the FFL in the first state is selling the gun to the second FFL who is then selling it to the retail buyer. You cannot buy a handgun in a "foreign" state directly from the FFL dealer the way you can a long gun. (I realize in most cases the intermediate FFL is only doing paperwork, but the legal fiction is that HE is selling you the gun). Regardless, interstate private party sells are NOT legal (in fact they are a felony under Federal law).
I misunderstood what you wrote. To the naked the eye, your posted sounded like NO HANDGUNS can be purchased via interstate. However you are correct, even if you are buying a handgun from a private individual, in actuality, the handgun is bought from your FFL holder who had it transfered from the out of state FFL. Hence, no private individual was "technically" involved in the legal transaction.
MHO
I don't really care if it's "legal" or not. They (guns) are legal products (just like cars) and since they are my property (the ones I own), I'll sell to whomever I dang well please. I'll give away any I dang well please, to anyone or anywhere I dang well please. I can buy a teddy bear in another state (in reference to teddy's are more regulated then guns); I can buy a car in any state I please (in reference to guns should be treated (licenced) like cars). A new century is starting, and I plan on welcoming it as a true American and not a welfare guzzling, guberment dependent, anti-american, socialist minded sheep.
To help meself fully experience my new "set"D), I've already started to email and snail mail President Bush with my ideas, sample drafts of new E.O.s (idea was taken from http://www.sierratimes.com and I just expanded on it), and a constant reminder that this is a Republic and not a democracy. I did send an electronic copy of the Constitution and the BoR's but their system rejected the file because of size; so I snail mailed a copy. Now is the time to really become active folks... we may only have two years to get this thing headed in the right direction.
USP45usp
*Oh, to be PC, it is illegal to sell your own legal property such as a firearm across state lines. As is your ability to buy legal products from a legal shop owner in another state (but only firearms). You can buy anything else, anywhere else you wish (non firearms). *anybody catch the sarcasim here?*
I don't really care if it's "legal" or not. They (guns) are legal products (just like cars) and since they are my property (the ones I own), I'll sell to whomever I dang well please. I'll give away any I dang well please, to anyone or anywhere I dang well please. I can buy a teddy bear in another state (in reference to teddy's are more regulated then guns); I can buy a car in any state I please (in reference to guns should be treated (licenced) like cars). A new century is starting, and I plan on welcoming it as a true American and not a welfare guzzling, guberment dependent, anti-american, socialist minded sheep.
To help meself fully experience my new "set"
D), I've already started to email and snail mail President Bush with my ideas, sample drafts of new E.O.s (idea was taken from http://www.sierratimes.com and I just expanded on it), and a constant reminder that this is a Republic and not a democracy. I did send an electronic copy of the Constitution and the BoR's but their system rejected the file because of size; so I snail mailed a copy. Now is the time to really become active folks... we may only have two years to get this thing headed in the right direction.USP45usp
*Oh, to be PC, it is illegal to sell your own legal property such as a firearm across state lines. As is your ability to buy legal products from a legal shop owner in another state (but only firearms). You can buy anything else, anywhere else you wish (non firearms). *anybody catch the sarcasim here?*
Jeff:
"except that this paragraph shall not apply to (A) the transfer, transportation, or delivery of a firearm made to carry out a bequest of a firearm to, or an acquisition by intestate succession of a firearm by, a person who is permitted to acquire or possess a firearm under the laws of the State of his residence,"
My reading of that is that a private transfer is ok as long as the buyer is legal to own in his home state. Am I misreading something? Before Illinois changed the law, I used to go to the Lake County gun show and sold a couple of handguns there. I checked with the authorities and they said it was legal. Since I'm now trying to find a gun privately, I'd be very interested to know from any lawyer types here if that's legal.
Dick
"except that this paragraph shall not apply to (A) the transfer, transportation, or delivery of a firearm made to carry out a bequest of a firearm to, or an acquisition by intestate succession of a firearm by, a person who is permitted to acquire or possess a firearm under the laws of the State of his residence,"
My reading of that is that a private transfer is ok as long as the buyer is legal to own in his home state. Am I misreading something? Before Illinois changed the law, I used to go to the Lake County gun show and sold a couple of handguns there. I checked with the authorities and they said it was legal. Since I'm now trying to find a gun privately, I'd be very interested to know from any lawyer types here if that's legal.
Dick
Jeff ( and others): my apologies for presuming to be able to read legalese. I printed out the entirety of Title 18, Chapter 44, Section 922 today for our family gathering, and went through it with my nephew, who is an attorney. That paragraph, with the qualifying sentence under (A) only allows the private interstate transfer without an FFL involved if the transfer is part of a will or distribution of personal property to family of a deceased. So, we can't legally transfer a gun privately to somebody across state lines unless we die. Swell.
When did this happen? It slipped under my radar screen. Anybody else's? It was just five or six years ago that I was doing private sales and purchases in other states, presumably legally.
BTW, this nephew was an assistant to Senator Herb Kohl, author of the gun-free school zone bill. As he shuffled through the 25 pages of that section, he said "I didn't know the federal gun laws were this complicated." To which I replied, "that's just section 922. There's 924 and a couple of others as well. Now do you understand why gun owners are just a little p.o'd?" I actually think he got the point.
Dick
When did this happen? It slipped under my radar screen. Anybody else's? It was just five or six years ago that I was doing private sales and purchases in other states, presumably legally.
BTW, this nephew was an assistant to Senator Herb Kohl, author of the gun-free school zone bill. As he shuffled through the 25 pages of that section, he said "I didn't know the federal gun laws were this complicated." To which I replied, "that's just section 922. There's 924 and a couple of others as well. Now do you understand why gun owners are just a little p.o'd?" I actually think he got the point.
Dick
Robert the41MagFan
New member
There seems to be a wide range of opinion on this issue. And you are not alone, this comes up almost daily in the gun business and opinions seem to varies from region to region.
Do what most smart gun businesses do, call the local ATF office and get a direct answer from them. Then whether you agree with them or not, follow exactly what they tell you. It is not worth the hassle not to do so.
Robert
Do what most smart gun businesses do, call the local ATF office and get a direct answer from them. Then whether you agree with them or not, follow exactly what they tell you. It is not worth the hassle not to do so.
Robert
Believe it or not this little gem slipped into the law through the "Firearm Owners Protection Act"! It came about when they legalized the FFL sale of long arms to out of state buyers. The wording came out that ONLY and FFL could sell to an out of state buyer. Don't know if that was intended, or just bad law writing, but that is how the courts and the BATF have been interpreting it.
Monkeyleg, join the club. I had the same problem understanding the meaning of a word in the FOPA '86. A call to the local BATF didn't do any good because he got it wrong too. FOPA '86 did permit face to face transfer from a dealer in interstate sales, but did not effect handguns. Private interstate transfer of handguns has been illegal since NFA '68. BATF had been somewhat lax in enforcement in areas like Memphis, Louisville, Cinncinatti, and other large urban areas that sit on the border with another state, but it is still illegal.