Caliber Choice

[Orphanedcowboy]

I traded into a New Haven Winchester 70 in 300wsm. I would leave it like it is, but I have 3 already, as well as two 325's, one 270, 2 7mm and even a 350wsm wildcat, so I really don't want another wsm. This gun has the Controlled Round Push Feed bolt face and a blind magazine.

With all that said, what caliber would you chose? I don't care for a SAUM version either, but I am thinking another 450 Marlin is in order, slow and fat like me. I built one yrs ago and let a buddy talk me out of it and he won't let it go.

Any other ideas? I don't want to modify the bolt face if possible.

 

[chris in va]

With all that said, what caliber would you chose?

For what?

 

[taylorce1]

Well since you're not opposed to a wildcat why not a .450 WSM? I'm sure someone has done it before, I would think it would be in-between the .458 Win and the .458X2 American in performance. Slow cartridge that is fatter than the .444 Marlin that will only require a new barrel to work in your action.

 

[old roper]

You sure want to talk to a gunsmith about the 450 Marlin and what type work to make that case feed in model 70 magazine/follower/feed rails etc, they both have almost same bolt face so that shouldn't be a problem.

I could see why you won't wildcat the WSM to .458 cal might not have enough shoulders to headspace on.


I've had 2 300WSM build and 270WSM on Win model 70 actions if I did another it be the 6.5x300wsm. Well good luck

 

[taylorce1]

I could see why you won't wildcat the WSM to .458 cal might not have enough shoulders to headspance on.

I disagree there should be plenty of shoulder to head space a .458 diameter bullet on. There is a .400 Whelen or .411 Hawk that will have very little shoulder and they are still able to head space. The WSM case is wider at the base than the belt on the .458 Cartridge.

Your shoulder should still be around .079 larger diameter than the .458 caliber bullet. It will be a rather sharp shoulder but still should be enough to properly head space.

 

[ak2323]

Straight up question - what country are you shooting in and what are you shooting at?

 

[Orphanedcowboy]

Hogs, deer, elk or what ever presents itself.

The 450 Marlin was a factory Custom Shop caliber chambering, it even uses the same follower as the WSM. A wildcat 450 WSM would basically be a 450 Marlin, no need chasing that goat. I had considered the 350 Rem Mag, but it mirrors the 350WSM closely.

I looked at Buffalo Bore's offerings and a 400gr RN would kill anything I would ever encounter and I can load all the way from 405gr down to 250gr, so I basically made my mind up. It would also helps to remember I have several hundred pieces of once fired and new brass, Hornady dies, primers and a bunch bullets.

I also have an Ultra Hunter in 450 Marlin that has over 100 hogs and a 13 point buck under its belt, but it beats your shoulder to death so I haven't shot it in 5 or 6 yrs.

Thanks

 

[ak2323]

Those are all great rounds, no mistake. But you can take take anything in the continental 48 with a 7mm Mag or a 300 win Mag if you wish.

Save weight, lessen recoil. Of course you can go smaller, just saying I'd expect you to be going after BIG game with those rounds.

I'm the last person to say someone has 'too much gun' btw.

 

[taylorce1]

I agree a .450 WSM would be about the same as a .450 Marlin but at least you wouldn't have a belt. Not that I hate belted cartridges, but I don't use them unless I absolutely have to.

 

[old roper]

taylorce1, Picture sure are nice and I like how you post them. Problem with you math is I assume you took the .538 and subtracted the .459 and that left the .079. You do know that has to be divided so actual shoulder width be something like .0395. and a dime is .050 wide.

I was just bringing up a point to the OP as he's done the 350WSM and since I've had few WSM build I could understand not wanting to wildcatting the WSM case.

 

[taylorce1]

I used as well other cartridges for example that have less than a shoulder of less than .0395", .400 Whelen and .411 Hawk. They use a shoulder diameter of .458" and a .411 caliber bullet, so you are looking at a difference of .047" which is still less than your dime. Like I said it would be a sharp shoulder but plenty to headspace on.

Plus there was no problem with my math. I said there was a diameter difference of .079" I didn't feel the need to break it down any further. Besides if he really wanted to he could blow the case out and headspace off of the mouth like .45 ACP pistols but then he would have to find bullets larger than .500 in diameter.

 

[nate45]

.416 Weatherby Magnum, develop a load using the Barnes 350 grain TSX.

Flip any hog, deer, bear, etc on its ear.

 

[Orphanedcowboy]

The only problem I see with a 450 WSM wildcat is safety. It could be chambered in any of the parent non belted long action magnum chambering derivatives(Ultra Mag), the precise reason Hornady extended the belt on the Marlin case was to prevent this.

I know it is a slim chance, but it could happen.

 

[old roper]

Orphanedcowboy, Here something that was suppose to happen
http://www.realguns.com/Commentary/comar60.htm

In the early years was lot of speculation on the WSM case.

 

[taylorce1]

The only problem I see with a 450 WSM wildcat is safety. It could be chambered in any of the parent non belted long action magnum chambering derivatives(Ultra Mag), the precise reason Hornady extended the belt on the Marlin case was to prevent this.

Yes but any WSM can be chambered in the same rifles as well, so I wouldn't let that hold you back from building it. I imagine the case capacity would be a problem if you run 500 grain bullets same as you would running the same bullet in a .450 Marlin. I would think if you stick to bullets around 450 grains or less you wouldn't have a problem with powder capacity.

There is another round out there that is supposed to have the same case capacity as the .458 Win in WSM length action called the .458 B&M cartridge. They talk about building it on Winchester WSM CRF rifles but I'd imagine it would work well with yours as well. It is based off of the Ultra Mag case trimmed back to 2.240". I know that isn't a whole lot longer than the WSM case which the RUM is pretty close in case dimensions at the base. I can't find a chamber print of the B&M case to find the exact dimensions.

 

[natman]

.416 Weatherby Magnum, develop a load using the Barnes 350 grain TSX.

Flip any hog, deer, bear, etc on its ear.

It would certainly be potent, but the 416 WBY Mag case is almost an inch longer than a 300 WSM. It won't fit in the action.

 

[nate45]

I know, but why mess around turning a short action Model 70 into something? When you could shoot a 350 grain bullet at 2900+ fps.

If it were me I'd probably turn your rifle into a .358 Winchester, nothing in Texas could stand up to that, or most anywhere for that matter. However, you said you dismissed the 350WSM and 350 Rem Mag, so I figured you wanted something really potent, for whatever reason.

I'm serious too, the .416 Wea with the 350 grain Barnes TSX @2900fps is a mean machine. You could kill everything on earth with heart/lung shots. A good pad and the accubrake would make the recoil manageable.

 

[old roper]

I find it strange that the OP already knew that the 450 Marlin and WSM followers were the same on his second post and he had all this 450 Marlin brass etc.

As to the saftety reason for the longer belt on the 450 Marlin my understand it was done so that 450 Marlin brass couldn't be chamber in a standard mag belted chamber. You couln't close the bolt in a standard chamber for the WSM using the 450 Marlin loaded rd. I'm sure someone could load a 450 Marlin in a ULTRA mag chamber same as you could load a 30-30 or some wildcat WSM.

As to claims as someone pointed out "A wildcat 450 WSM would basically be a 450 Marlin." From everything I've read about the 450 Marlin working pressure is appr 44,000PSI and for the WSM is 65,000PSI.

Myself I think someone just stirring the pot. I forgot to post were taylor getting his information

http://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/6521043/m/3691040861

 

[Orphanedcowboy]

I guess you missed the line in the first post about I built one yrs ago, built it on a Mod 70 Coyote rifle. The H&R was my first actual encounter with the 450 Marlin and when you are seeing 12 + hogs under your feeder, a single shot is a liability.

As for having brass and bullets, your point? I have brass and bullets for a 375 H&H but nothing chambered in the caliber.

I guess I was wasting your time, I had already made my mind up shortly before my second post in this thread.

I didn't dismiss the 350 REM Mag, I already have the 358 WSM, so that would make no sense when they are so similar.

The desire for a 450 Marlin based bolt action is unique, my primary rifle/caliber is a 30-06, I have found very little I can't kill with it, I am very comfortable with it, I know it's limitations, it's potential and I have no trouble finding ammo for it if needed.

 

[taylorce1]

Myself I think someone just stirring the pot. I forgot to post were taylor getting his information

http://forums.accuratereloading.com/...3/m/3691040861

There is nothing like getting your questions answered by a few experts when your not 100% sure. Besides your questioning about enough shoulder was a legitimate question that caused me to second guess myself. I was almost sure that there was enough shoulder to head space just needed a little affirmation. Take a look at the time stamps I asked the question after I had already posted pics and did the math that you questioned me on. Besides isn't that what you asked me to do on another topic of the .338 Edge vs. .338 RUM?

As to claims as someone pointed out "A wildcat 450 WSM would basically be a 450 Marlin." From everything I've read about the 450 Marlin working pressure is appr 44,000PSI and for the WSM is 65,000PSI.

You're right about listed operating pressures of each cartridge, however brass will be the limiting factor. If .450 Marlin brass can take 65K psi then the OP can load to the same pressure as the WSM in his action. I'd work up extremely slow paying careful attention to the brass, but there is no reason with the strong bolt action you couldn't surpass factory loads. The .450 case holds around 70+ grains of water and the WSM 80+ grains, so loaded to the same pressures they would be close in performance using .458 bullets.