CA law and buying from out of state

Radicalcleric

New member
Sometimes when this topic comes up the discussion gets a little wild with some people banging the table saying they know the law and blah blah blah. I would like to talk about the current situation with the CA "safety certifation" law that effects so many classic S&W revolvers, but I don't want any fights or egos getting in the way.

As most of you know, CA enacted a law where any handgun (DA revolvers and all semi-autos) had to be submitted for a safety test. Any such gun not on the approved list is banned for sale by dealers in CA. This law seems to prevent CA residents from buying older handguns that are no longer in production and therefore not on the approved list because nobody wants to pay for having them approved.

A good friend and I were discussing this situation last night with a CA FFL holder who operates a large gun shop in a big CA city. He had just completed a course with the state DOJ to learn all about the laws affecting gun selling. He pointed out that the statute clearly states that private transfers, one non-FFL to another, are expemt from the requirement regarding the safety test. If Bob has a M29-2 that he wants to sell to Jim, they go to the local FFL and he transfer the gun from seller to buyer. Even though the gun is not on the approved list, private transfers are exempt from this requirement. Furthermore, an FFL can display unapproved consignment guns for sale in his shop in a separate case, and transfer them to the buyers. He cannot offer for sale, on his own behalf, a gun not on the approved list.

Now, my dealer friend noted that nowhere in the law does it say that the two parties involved in the private party transfer are required to both be CA residents. He maintains that it would be perfectly legal for a private party in another state to send an unapproved gun to a CA FFL for a private party transfer to a CA buyer.

We have looked at the law, and it does say that private party transfers are exempt from the safety requirement, and I don't see anything there about out of state sellers being banned from selling to in-state buyers. The FFL I was talking with holds that as he had it explained to him by the DOJ representative, only professional dealers (FFL holders) would be prohibited from sending an unapproved gun into CA for trnasfer to a buyer. A non-FFL holder would be exempt according to state law just as would be any in-state private party transfer seller. He said that he had transferred a number of guns to CA buyers from out of state sellers (non-FFLs) and the DOJ running the background checks had said nothing.

If he is correct, this would have a profound effect on CA residents who wanted to purchase older guns that are not on the approved list.

Please, no arguing or posturing, but I would like to hear some input from people familiar with CA gun laws. If you have a reasonable point to make, pro or con, let's hear it. But again, no fights or yelling at each other. Discussions on gun laws often break down into shouting matches about who is more knowledgeabe. I would like some calm, reasoned discussion here. Thanks.
 

EOD Guy

New member
Cal DOJ has specifically stated that an individual cannot have an out of state dealer ship a non-approved handgun to a California dealer in order to transfer it to a California resident. I don't know if they have officially addressed an individual shipping directly to a dealer. I do know that most California dealers will not accept a handgun shipment from an individual. Your dealer might very well be correct, but I would not want to be the test case.
 

Iggy

New member
What about new productions guns?/

Was there any discussion about or opinions on the possibility of transferring a new gun that is not on the list between individuals?

What I am getting at.. can an individual from out of state send a new gun to a FFL for transfer to an individual living in CA?


Thanks,
 

MatthewM

New member
Saxxon & Iggy, that has always been my contention & is how the law reads. I've done it myself.

However, when this was discussed here a couple months ago & when I sent an email to DOJ, they said otherwise.

Then again, the last time I did such a deal, I took the law with me to the store and they called the DOJ on the spot and it was approved.

The government officials generally do not know the law. Worse is that they will intentionally misrepresent the law if it suits their purposes.

Next time I do this, I'm going to have the FFL transfer dealer call DOJ and then have him, myself & witness sign a note as to the phone call, etc.

- Used gun from outside CA, shipped by private party directly to your FFL. Papers filled out & 10+ day wait.

* Many others disagree.....
 

Iggy

New member
Very Interesting..

Thanks for the information.. I have a friend that is interested in getting a gun from out of state and I had advised him it was virtually impossible...You may have made it possible..

Hardest part will be finding a FFL that agrees to try it... *G*
 

larryw

New member
Both times I did a PPT transfer, both the seller and buyer had to be present at the FFL when the gun was transfered. The seller can't just ship it to the FFL, he has to deliver it by hand.

So if you can find an out of state seller to deliver the gun to your CA FFL, I think you have something.
 

GunsnRovers

New member
AFAIK

We're having this conversation on another forum as well.

AFAIK, based on a conversation with a DOJ rep earlier this year and numerous conversations with dealers and FFL holders, a PPT can only take place face to face.

I don't know if the 2003 laws change this, but AFAIK right now it is possible for someone out of the PRK to move or come here with a non-approved gun and sell it in a PPT through a FFL holder. The person must be an "infrequent seller" and I think PRK Penal Code 12072 identifies this person as one who sells 6 or less hanguns within a calendar year (01/01 ~ 12/31).

The catch is that if you send a non-approved gun to a PRK FFL holder (even from another FFL holder here in the PRK), the gun gets DROS'd by the receiving FFL holder and then can no longer be sold in Calfornia.
 

Radicalcleric

New member
According to my FFL friend, the seller does not need to be present for a PPT. He says that most of the time the buyer brings the gun into his store and he does the transfer and takes the gun for the 10 day waiting period. Again, he says this is the way he has always done it and so far not a peep from the DOJ.
 

SteveC

New member
A lot depends on the DOJ guy you speak to

After talking to a couple of people, its looks like the laws are interpreted the way the DOJ Official du Jour sees fit. If you get a "gun friendly" guy, you're okay. If you get someone who has issues, then you can get screwed royally.

Apparently, even having a letter from the DOJ that says you can do something, doesn't prevent some other DOJ guy from trying to bust your chops.

Maybe a class action suit against the CA DOJ is in order? Just try not to have it at the 9th circuit...

Steve
 

wolfman97

New member
Apparently, even having a letter from the DOJ that says you can do something, doesn't prevent some other DOJ guy from trying to bust your chops.

Maybe a class action suit against the CA DOJ is in order? Just try not to have it at the 9th circuit...

It wouldn't work. The IRS has long had a program of issuing ruling letters to people who want official answers on tax questions. No matter what the official letter says, the IRS can tell you the exact opposite thing the next day and fine you and possibly even jail you for following their own advice.

If you aren't fully acquainted with the workings of the US Government in these respects, I suggest you read a novel by Joseph Heller called "Catch 22". It explains it pretty well.
 

SVRider

New member
Interesting discussion. The FFL I've contacted (here in CA) maintains that any out-of-state transfer into California is legally seen as a dealer sale, even if it is a private sale. All the usual laws apply to it (1 handgun every 30 days, 10 day wait, etc.).
 

Mute

New member
From every piece of information I have, a PPT has to be done face to face or all the rules for that DOJ approval list applies. :barf:
 

Radicalcleric

New member
I can only repeat what two CA FFLs have now told me. Seller does not need to be present, most of the time seller is not there and so far no troub;e from DOJ. Both say that according to DOJ people they talked to, PPT is a PPT no matter where the two parties live.

Hard part is finding FFL who is willing.
 

EOD Guy

New member
I can only repeat what two CA FFLs have now told me. Seller does not need to be present, most of the time seller is not there and so far no trouble from DOJ. Both say that according to DOJ people they talked to, PPT is a PPT no matter where the two parties live.

Hard part is finding FFL who is willing.

SaxonPig,

I think the point is that at least the buyer has to be there, although if he got the firearm from an out of state resident, it was itself an illegal transfer.

I agree that finding a willing dealer would be the problem. This might not be settled until a court decides and no one wants to be the test case.
 

GunsnRovers

New member
a reply from the CA DOJ

Earlier this week I sent an inquiry via email to the DOJ about the rules for importing handguns from out of state. I specifically referenced collecting older S&W in my question.

Based on this reply, I think that it is very clear. You cannot PPT purchase a "non-certified" handgun from out of state. PPT's are only allowed between two PRK residents. A gun bought from an individual out of state must be processed through a dealer, and as a "dealer sale" is thus limited to "certified" hanguns.

The exception is for C&R handguns which PRK dealers may sell directly, however the buyer are is still limited to the standard rules that apply to new gun sales; you must have your safety card, pay the DROS, wait 10 days, 1 gun per month, etc.

Yesterday, I picked up a 1916 Colt New Service that my dealer purchased from out of state.

Here is the reply I received via email on 27 December 2002:

------------------------

Mr. Bieler:

California Penal Code (PC) section 12125 prohibits the manufacturer,
sale, importation into state, give or lend any unsafe handgun. There
are exceptions for private party transfers and curio/relic handguns.

A private party transfer is between two California residents who are
required to appear before a dealer to transfer the handgun. A firearm
shipped to a dealer from out-of-state is processed as a "dealer sale"
and is limited to certified handguns.

Curio/Relics (C&R) are defined by federal law. Contact the Bureau of
Alcohol, Tobacco & Firearms to determine if the S&W revolver is a C&R
firearm.

For information regarding the above cited Penal Code sections, visit
the Department of Justice website; www.ag.ca.gov/firearms. If you need
further assistance, contact the Department of Justice at (916)
227-3703.

Sincerely,
Kathy Quinn, Field Representative
Firearms Division
 

PKAY

New member
I purchased a consignment piece Smith model 66-3 from a Long Beach FFL earlier this month. PPT's must be effected in person (both seller and buyer). However, consignment sales (treated by DOJ as PPT's) do not require the presence of the seller at point of sale; only the buyer and FFL conducting the transaction according to the law. Further, and what is not generally known, is that PPT's and consignment purchases of handguns by eligible buyers ARE NOT limited to the "one gun per month" portion of the statute, only applying to "approved" or "safe handgun" transactions by FFL's out of inventory.
 

GunsnRovers

New member
are you sure?

Are you certain the C&R purchase does not qualify as "1 gun per month"? I know PPT's do, but all three of the dealers I regularly use here in LA have told me a C&R purchase counted against the 1 gun per month policy.

The C&R loop hole for out of state is a nice tool to use so long as you're certain the gun meets the requirement. I'm pretty certain getting the CA DOJ looking at you too carefully will result is a whole lot of trouble.
 
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