C&R license...How and why

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rangermonroe

New member
I think I am gonna have lotsa money at the end of October. Real estate deal.

I would prefer not to spend a bunch on transfer fees.

What is a Curio and relic license and what can this do for me.

I have perused this site, but would like some definitave answers.

"how much does it cost?"
"what can I do with it?"
"can I ship guns to myself from out of state?"
"Are tactical nukes on the list?"(pleeese.pleeese,pleeese say yes!)
"Handguns?"

"how long is it good for"
"Who has one and has it been worth it?"
"does the ATF come visit?"
"can I receive a gun for a friend?"

"Can I buy a gun and sell it later?"

Thanks guys
 
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USP45usp

Moderator
"how much does it cost?"

$30 for three years.

"what can I do with it?"

Guns free of the "yellow form" that are at least 50 years old. List is not updated per year so a gun made 50 years ago may not be on the list.

"can I ship guns to myself from out of state?"

You could do this anyway.

"Are tactical nukes on the list?"(pleeese.pleeese,pleeese say yes!)

You're kidding right? (I'm taking this that it's tongue in cheek)

"Handguns?"

Supply is drying up. Yet, if your local dealers will take your C&R and they have something (like the Ballester Molina that I just picked up), then you can save the $$ for the background check and it's pretty cool not to have to fill it out. Allot of Nagants and CZ's out there to be had though.

"how long is it good for"

3 Years then pay another $30 (right now) for renewal.

"Who has one and has it been worth it?"

Albanian SKS
Russian SKS
Yugo SKS
Romanian SKS
9mm Largo Star
Nagant Pistol
.45 Ballester Molina
CZ-52
No. 1 MK III .303

I've had my C&R for 2 years, 4 months, and I've bought all the above with it. I had about 22 other guns beforehand, and have bought about 4 modern guns during.

"does the ATF come visit?"

Not yet but they can if they wish. Most of the time with C&R you just go to the station with your C&R book and they check that you've inputted the guns in as required. As with any FFL, there is a chance.

"can I receive a gun for a friend?"

No and Yes. Once you receive you have to put it into your book as an acquisition and then mark it out as a disposition. You will need some sort of ID or enough information to put into your book so that you can CYA. All weapons sold MUST be used to expend your collection and not used as a money making endeaver.

"Can I buy a gun and sell it later?"

Yes, to expend your collection. You cannot sell for profit, that will make you a gun dealer and that takes an FFL01. The FFL03 is for COLLECTION only, not for profit.

A couple of things, if you don't know how to deal with Cosmo and you don't want to, don't get a C&R. If you don't know how to take a gun completely apart, to clean out the cosmo, then don't get a C&R, if you don't want to spend the money on strange or hard to get calibers (ammo), don't get a C&R.

Wayne
 
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Crosshair

New member
"can I receive a gun for a friend?"

Currently I'm taking a chance on buyng one of the cheaper SKSs. If I like it, I will keep it, if not, I will just sell it since it doesn't fit into my collection. You can't sell for profit, just dispose of guns that don't fit into you're collection. It unfortunately leaves lots of grey areas as to what is legal or not.
 
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rangermonroe

New member
Thanks for the responses.

I understand that if I buy a gun for $350 and don't like it I could sell it for $350 and be OK, but if I were to sell it for $375, I would be making a profit, correct?

Would I have to keep the information in a "bound book" like a class 1 dealer, and do the background checks and fill out a 4473? Or can you treat it as selling any other gun?

Don't misunderstand me, I am not looking for a hole to wiggle through. I just want to make sure that I do not trip over the law due to ignorance.
 
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USP45usp

Moderator
rangermonroe,

My fault, I should have clarified. You can sell for a higher price but ONLY if you are using that money to expend your personnal collection.

To help:

I buy another Yugo SKS for the on sale price of $99.99 from Aim/Sarco/Etc.. I decide that I don't want another Yugo and I don't want to collect SKS's any more.

I sell it for let's say $150, so I made a "profit". That's fine if I either put that money aside for that Colt Sistema that I want or for that Class III C&R that I want. As long as they see that you sold many lower priced guns and then you have a higher priced gun in your aquisition area, then they know that you weren't pocketing the money for profit (but the cost should be around what all the C&R's would have gone for at a small profit).

The "gray" area is this, if you continue to buy mass amounts of Yugo's/Mauser's/etc.. and you clean them up and then sell them, and you keep on doing this for say a year, and your book shows just them coming in and just those going out without an edition to your own personal collection that you have right then, then they can say that you were "dealing" or creating a business.

BUT, if you buy all these guns, clean them up, sell them and then you have a C&R machine gun or something of high value that you added to your collection, then it shows that you bought and sold all those guns to expend your collection with a high end (more expensive) piece.

This is dangerous though, because it's a "gray area" the ATFE may still bust you for "dealing".

Does a C&R who sells to a non-licensee need to fill out a C&R?
Click to expand...

You mean the Yellow Form? No. It's a private, person to person sale. BUT, in the disposition part of your book (bound book) there is a place for personal information, it's there to CYA if the gun is used in crime or something else. You can prove who you sold it to and that you actually sold it.

I get copies of their DL's for file. If they don't wish to let me copy it, then they don't get the gun, simple as that. (I've only sold three so far, how the heck do you think that I had the money to get my "new" ballester molina :D ).

Wayne
 
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butch50

New member
I kept a C&R for awhile, then decided that it wasn't actually saving me very much money (given my slow acquisition habits) and it was creating too many restrictions. So I didn't renew it.

I do not like the idea that I can not sell my guns to someone else without BATF looking over my shoulder to make sure that I am not trying to make money. I did not like the idea that I was making it easy for BATF to know what I have by keeping a detailed record for them, that they can review anytime they get a hair up their butts.

If you decide to buy a C&R eligible gun that is not intended for your collection but perhaps to trade or sell later or to give away as a gift, and you have a C&R license, then you get into a gray area, of whether or not you have to log it in as part of your collection. And once logged in it has to be logged out eventually showing to whom it went. I did not like that at all. For what little I got out of it, it just wasn't worth it.
 
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rangermonroe

New member
Thanks for clearing that up for me. I believe that I will pursue getting it, as I have to pay $25 for each transfer now and the last few that I bought were 50 year old designs, I would have paid for it several times over.

That is how I will explain it to the wife at least.

Thanks again
 
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USP45usp

Moderator
rangermonroe,

Check these places out first, just so that you know if it's worth it:

http://www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/curios/index.htm

This link has the listing of all the guns that you can get.

Then goto:

http://www.aimsurplus.com/

http://www.sarcoinc.com/

http://www.southernohiogun.com/

http://www.centuryarms.com/Century/home.htm

http://www.cdnninvestments.com/

These are just a few. If you send them your FFL03, you will get their catalogs and they have more deals then on their webpages.

I like mine, I will renew next year. As far as the BATFE goes, I don't like them snooping either but hell, they know my name by now so I take the risk.

Hope this helps.

Wayne
 
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No Name XII

New member
I have a couple questions also. First, and if the answer to this is no, you can ingore the rest of the post (infact, please do). Can you get a C&R as a corporation? I think some people form a corp. when they can't get the CLEO sign-off for the form 4, and I thought it might be the same for the C&R. If this is the case, does an LLC qualify as a corporation for this purpose? Here is the big one, and this completely gives me away, if you can get it as a corporation, does the owner of the corporation have to be over 21? Oh, and also, are there storage requirements for the C&R FFL? I'm pretty sure there are for FFL 01s, like the type of safe, etc., and I didn't know if they applied to 03s.
 
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USP45usp

Moderator
No Name XII,

I believe so. When I filled out the paperwork, on the back, they had an area for a Corporation.

You DON'T have to have the CLEO sign off on an FFL03. You put who they are and then send them a copy, they have NO say in whether you can have or not.

(but, in places like NY, CA, NJ and a few others, you are still under state law. You can get a C&R but you have to abide by their laws as what you can bring in, and how. In CA, NY and NJ, a C&R is just a piece of paper :( ).

I believe that you have to be 21 to get the C&R (if I am wrong, someone please speak up, I don't wish to give bad information here).

There are NO storage requirements (safes, etc..). Until Clinton came around (hey, I forgot about this to put on the "why gun owners hated clinton thread) there were no storage requirements even with FFL01's and no store front requirements.

Wayne
 
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No Name XII

New member
I know a person has to be 21 to get it, I was wondering if the owner's age mattered if it was through a corporation. I guess I might be in a gray area of the law here, so I guess I would probably just have to ask the batf(e) anyway to get a binding answer.

Also, for anyone with a C&R in IL, is it badly restricted here? Do the waiting periods still apply? It seems in the laws they specifically say dealer and not just FFL when giving exceptions, so is the FFL 03 treated any differently than a non-licensee?
 
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cracked butt

New member
If you're buying C&R guns and end up selling a couple every year, you aren't going to get in trouble. If you are buying guns and then selling them to others or to your friends right away, you probably will have some questions to answer if you get audited. The BATF does not want to to run a business with your C&R license. That's a pretty arbitrary stipulation, but ultimately you will know if you are doing it strictly for profit and so will they.
 
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wyrdone

New member
A couple of clarifications...

Yes you can sell guns for profit. However, if you get audited you must be able to make a good case. (If you bought it in years previous and then average price went up or became rare then you can sell for a higher price easily.)

You can sell ones you bought right away. They do not frown on you buying multiple of the same and then keeping the best and selling the rest. (This is what I did with some friends, while doing a group buy. I bought 5 and kept two and sold the other 3. Didn't make any profit, but I could have charged more than I bought them for.)
 
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