Buy an FAL???

[model70fan]

I've seen a lot about FALs recently and have always kind of wanted one but never talked myself into it. How accurate are they out to say 500 yds? Or are they better to keep iron sighted or red dotted? How much does a new one go for? I have no experience with FALs, I have a lot of bolt guns, handguns, shotguns, 4 ARs (3 in 5.56, 1 in .308), etc... I just thought an FAL would be a good addition to my collection, so please try to convince me Tell me what I need to know about them if you would be so kind, and again, pleeeeeease convince me to go buy one.

 

[chris in va]

The only knowledge I have about a FAL is my friend's. He got it last year for around $1200. Nothing terribly fancy, and he ended up getting extra doodads for it like muzzle brake and a different grip.

Before trying it out for the first time, we stopped by the local gun store and picked up about 250 rounds of 308. It came to around $175!

So for two solid hours, he pumped all that ammo down his constantly malfunctioning $1200 rifle trying to get the gas system dialed in. We never did get it to cycle reliably.

Hey, maybe people really like the gun. Personally I can think of a hundred other ways to spend that kind of cash.

 

[Dolvio]

FALs kick ass.

 

[HorseSoldier]

I just thought an FAL would be a good addition to my collection

It's a classic design, and any gun collection is enriched by having one (or more) of them.

Tell me what I need to know about them if you would be so kind, and again,

Buy one from DSA as a starter, if the price isn't a deal breaker (prices tend to be similar to the cost of M14 clones -- I think DSA's lowest MSRP is around $1200). They make them here in the US, and do the job right.

You can get less well made ones for less, but it can be a crap shoot. Some of the lower end guns from places like Century Internat'l Arms will run as well as a DSA or an actual real-deal .mil example (I have one that runs just as well as my DSA carbine and the select fire Austrian StG-58s we've got in my unit's arms room). Some will be complete headaches. FALs are definitely a place where the "buy cheap, pay twice" thing is in effect.

pleeeeeease convince me to go buy one.

Does gun pr0n help? The first is a DSA Para-FAL carbine with 16" barrel, their rail system, and an ACOG fitted.

The second one is a Century built full-size that was built on a Rhodesian parts kit, complete with Rhodesian military serial number. I felt it was my historical duty to put a paint scheme on it that matched the late war camo applied by the Rhodesian Light Infantry, Selous Scouts, and such.

 

[DMK]

The only knowledge I have about a FAL is my friend's. He got it last year for around $1200....So for two solid hours, he pumped all that ammo down his constantly malfunctioning $1200 rifle trying to get the gas system dialed in. We never did get it to cycle reliably.

What kind of FAL was it? Who made it?

The problem with the FAL (and the AK , and the AR), is everyone and his brother makes one. Some are good, some are not so good. Unless you really know what you are doing, you need to buy from a reputable maker with a warranty and good customer service.

The FAL is a simple machine. Almost as simple as an AK and certainly as robust. I've built two in spare time, in my garage, literally from boxes of parts. Both started surplus parts kits that I took completely apart, down to the smallest screw and spring, refinished, upgraded and replaced many of the parts and reassembled (one of them two year after I took it apart). Both work 100% reliably.

That said, there are a lot of ways someone can screw up building one if they aren't careful or use inferior parts, techniques or tools.

FALs kick ass.

I love the rifles. They are like big AKs with better sights and a harder punch.

 

[Silvanus]

Personally I can think of a hundred other ways to spend that kind of cash.

Me too! Where I live there are tons of surplus FALs (unfired and used) from all around the world. They usually cost 400-650€ (depending on the model and country of origin). I really like my FAL, I think it's one of the best .308 military rifles you can get, but 1200$ sounds like a lot of money. If that's a normal price in the US and you can afford it though, go for it

For your viewing pleasure:

 

[Willie D]

DSAs are nice but are still "parts guns". FALs are one gun where the name CAI doesn't always mean crap. Some of them are built on Imbel receivers which are excellent.


I'd like to build one but I've yet to see receivers of any make less than $300 which seems like a lot. Add that to a $200-300 parts kit and building one doesn't seem like the greatest deal.

 

[M1911]

I've got a FAL. Mine is a parts gun built on an Imbel receiver using an Stg58 parts kit and the required US made parts.

Frankly, I'm not that impressed with it. FAL triggers are not that great. Accuracy is ok, but nothing to write home about. The sights are fair at best.

The combination of the adjustable gas port and dust cover is a bad thing, IMHO. If you have too little gas pressure on the piston, then you will get incomplete ejection of the spent cartridge case. You can then end up with the cartridge case jammed between the bolt carrier and the dust cover. Then you are well and truly in deep kimchee. You can't remove the dust cover because first you need to close the bolt, which you can't do. If you are lucky, kicking the operating rod handle will clear the jam. If you are not lucky, you just broke the operating rod handle. No, this is not an academic argument. I've seen it happen first hand. Twice.

The FAL also seems to be nose-heavy to me, with poor balance. Take down is easy. It isn't a particularly easy gun to scope either (of course, neither is the M1A).

I prefer my M1A or AR-10 to my FAL. YMMV.

The FAL looks cool. But I think a lot of the mystique about the FAL is simply that it was relatively rare here for a long time.

 

[DMK]

Aftermarket parts

FAL triggers are not that great.

I used an FSE trigger set in one of my FALs. It's very nice. The other has an Austrian STG trigger, but I used a Falcon Arms trigger improvement spring kit in it. There are some other tricks to make the FAL trigger better. It's very easy to work with.

The sights are fair at best.

I don't like how the front sight and rear sight are on different halves of the rifle, but DSA has a few major improvements to the rear sight. One simple fix is a hooded sight with a smaller aperture. Much better. My other FAL has a "Hampton" lower receiver which uses an integral AR15/M16A2 rear sight assembly. That opens up a whole world of rear aperture options as well as much better elevation and windage adjustments.

The FAL also seems to be nose-heavy to me, with poor balance.

A shorter barrel helps that a lot. I shortened one of mine to 18", the othet to 17" + a 1.5" muzzle brake. Some FALs have bigger heavier flash hiders.

It isn't a particularly easy gun to scope either

That used to be true, but isn't any longer. There are a few different railed top covers that fit tightly and work well. Both my FALs have quality railed top covers that never need to be removed (even on the Para!). I installed these mounts when the rifles were assembled and never removed them. They stay tight, hold a zero, and have never come loose. Scoping my FALs is as easy as scoping an AR15. In fact, if you look at my top FAL (the Green Machine), it's using an Armalite AR15 scope mount.

Accuracy is ok, but nothing to write home about.

I agree with you there. The FAL isn't a tack driver. FALs are notorious for first round flyers and handguards putting pressure on the barrel as it heats up. With open sights, there could be play between the two receiver halves. If you want an exceptionally accurate semiauto, the AR10 platform is a much better choice, maybe even the PTR91.

The basic military spec FAL might need some tweaks before it's satisfactory to some US owners. But keep in mind that sometimes we are trying to use old military rifles in ways that they were never designed to be used. The FAL was a front line service rifle, first fielded in the 1950s and intended to be used like the AK. It's an older design than even the M1A/M14. It wasn't designed to be a target rifle, or used with optics, or for precision work. However, it is somewhat improvable if you have some mechanical ability and do your homework. I consider the FAL to be in the same class as the AK (but in a larger caliber) and the Galil. If that's not your thing, there are many other good rifles to choose from: AR10, M1A, M1 Garand, PTR 91, etc...

 

[DMK]

The combination of the adjustable gas port and dust cover is a bad thing, IMHO. If you have too little gas pressure on the piston, then you will get incomplete ejection of the spent cartridge case. You can then end up with the cartridge case jammed between the bolt carrier and the dust cover. Then you are well and truly in deep kimchee.

Hmm. That's odd.

I have never seen this failure mode. I'll have to look again at my FALs, but I don't see how there is even enough room to get a case in between the cover and carrier. Of course, I have aftermarket top covers. Could you have the wrong top cover on your rifle?

The standard procedure is to shoot one round at a time, opening the gas port one click at a time until the bolt fails to lock back (indicating that there was not enough pressure to get the bolt far enough back to catch the BHO). Then you back the valve closed two clicks. If you do this, you shouldn't have any problems with too little gas pressure.

I did have a FAL quit cycling when my gas tube got clogged up with carbon once. It stopped ejecting, but never jammed. I finished the mag by cycling manually with the charging handle. After that I learned to clean the gas piston once in a while instead of .. well, never.

 

[Redneckrepairs]

Well i have a pretty junky parts gun ( an stg on an imbel gear logo reciever, not a c.i.a. rifle ) and the durned thing will run with every round i have tried from 110 grainers thro the 180s . Its just set the port so as to get ejection and function tuned the way you want it .

 

[YukonKid]

I really like them, i love the feel and the history that comes with them. That being said i bought an M1A first

I will definitely buy a FAL with a folding stock pretty soon, and yes...quite accurate out to 500 yards.

YK

 

[Redneckrepairs]

I have aftermarket top covers. Could you have the wrong top cover on your rifle?

Speculation here , but could a para dust cover on a standard rifle config do this ? I know the para setup uses some different springs ect rather than down the butt like mine so would that create the room ?

 

[Tikirocker]

This is THE FAL for me ... sadly illegal in my country now and they were our standard Military issue during Vietnam right through to the early 90's.

The L1A1 Lithgow SLR. - don't think I haven't thought of immigrating to a country where I can legally own one!

 

[M1911]

I have never seen this failure mode. I'll have to look again at my FALs, but I don't see how there is even enough room to get a case in between the cover and carrier. Of course, I have aftermarket top covers. Could you have the wrong top cover on your rifle?

Nope. It is a standard rifle with a standard dust cover.

This has happened to others. John Farnam is a big proponent of FALs, but he has seen this type of stoppage in his classes. For example:

In a Vehicle-Defense Course last weekend in IN, a student brought a DSA/FAL and a mixture of 308 ammunition. With ammunition becoming ever more expensive and scarce, these days one needs to use whatever he can get! In any event, one round in a half-dozen short-cycled and created a stoppage, to the increasing annoyance of the rifle's owner!

Full text is here: http://www.defense-training.com/quips/2007/29Oct07.html

John Farnam suggests leaving the gas port closed completely. But DS Arms says that doing so can result in a different stoppage:

I don't recommend closing the gas-regulator completely, as you suggested in your last Quip, unless absolutely necessary. What concerns me is not excessive wear-and-tear on the rifle. The DSA/FAL is a robust, military rifle that is designed for heavy use in hostile environments. It will take whatever you can give it! Nor is my concern with accuracy. Practical accuracy is unaffected by gas-regulator adjustments. Nor is my concern with recoil attenuation. Soft recoil is nice, but we can all handle recoil. The realproblem is with case-extraction that is so violent it may result in cases being literally pulled apart as the bolt moves to the rear. The front half of the case may thus be left in the chamber, resulting in a stoppage that cannot be corrected in the short term.

Full text is here: http://www.defense-training.com/quips/2007/01Nov07.html

The standard procedure is to shoot one round at a time, opening the gas port one click at a time until the bolt fails to lock back (indicating that there was not enough pressure to get the bolt far enough back to catch the BHO). Then you back the valve closed two clicks. If you do this, you shouldn't have any problems with too little gas pressure.

The standard procedure for adjusting the gas system on my M1A, AR10, and M1 Garands is as follows: load gun. Shoot gun. Repeat. No procedure to follow; it just works. Complicated isn't better. And neither the M1A nor Garand have any kind of dust cover, so they can't suffer that same kind of stoppage.

Lots of folks like the FAL. It certainly is usable, but not my favorite. YMMV.

 

[DMK]

The standard procedure for adjusting the gas system on my M1A, AR10, and M1 Garands is as follows: load gun. Shoot gun. Repeat. No procedure to follow; it just works. Complicated isn't better.

True. no argument there.

But the Garand, M1A, SKS, AK and FAL use the same type of gas system. There is a hole in the barrel that lets gas out into a tube that pushes a piston, that pushes a carrier. The only difference is the FAL has an adjustable relief port, where the others have a fixed size relief port. Closing the valve off completely is no relief port. If you run the FAL just two or three clicks open, you have the same exact system as the others.

The real issue is how is the spend case getting caught under the top cover?

 

[M1911]

But the Garand, M1A, SKS, AK and FAL use the same type of gas system.

The difference is that an idiot like me can't misadjust the Garand, M1A, SKS, or AK gas port and cause a stoppage. An idiot like me can misadjust the FAL gas port and cause a stoppage. I've got direct experience doing so. And I've pointed you towards information from John Farnam and DS Arms that indicates there are two types of stoppages that can occur -- the kind I had due to too little gas pressure and a second type due to too much gas pressure.

The real issue is how is the spend case getting caught under the top cover?

Precisely as Farnam explained it. If you don't have enough pressure (gas port opened too far), the bolt doesn't fully cycle. The cartridge case is thus only partially extracted from the chamber. The bolt doesn't go back far enough to eject the cartridge case. The bolt then starts moving forward again and the case gets stuck between the bolt/bolt carrier and the dust cover.

My rifle is now properly adjusted. So the point isn't "fixing" my rifle. It is "fixed." My criticism of the FAL is that having this adjustability isn't a good thing. If it is adjusted incorrectly you can get stoppages. And those stoppages can be severe enough that they can't be quickly cleared. It is an unnecessary complication.

 

[Redneckrepairs]

but the Garand, M1A, SKS, AK and FAL use the same type of gas system. There is a hole in the barrel that lets gas out into a tube that pushes a piston, that pushes a carrier. The only difference is the FAL has an adjustable relief port, where the others have a fixed size relief port. Closing the valve off completely is no relief port. If you run the FAL just two or three clicks open, you have the same exact system as the others.

Not quite accurate imho. True tho that the fal has a gas port , and a hell of a gas port in the barrel . this both makes the advantage of having a tunable gas sysem and the necessity . Other systems work and work well with good consistant pressure ammo . My fal works with that " 100 bucks a case " ammo i picked up the other day because it was a bargan and i have no idea of its age or providince . Turn the gas port a notch or two tighter and it shoots fine , tho it does kinda fling commercial ammo . For me the fal works , and i can shoot about anything in it , for what i cant shoot thro it i have a savage bolt in .308.

 

[M1911]

I have never had any ammo problems with my AR10, M1A, or my Garands. They just work. No need to tune anything. YMMV.

 

[Dolvio]

The gas system is simple. You go from totally open to totally closed...and anywhere in between. Once you select a position that is consistently cycling you close it 2 more clicks to make certain...if it starts short cycling when you change ammo...adjust it(if necessary). It's not rocket surgery.

*It isn't known as "The Right Arm of the Free World" for nothing.