Bushmaster carbine vs 20' Target Rifle

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Rockrivr1

New member
Ok, I'm going to get a Bushmaster but I'm unsure which model will be best. I like the looks of the M4 carbine but from reading recent posts it would seem that you get better accuracy and longer distance with the 20' Target model.

I'm going to get the detachable A3 carry handle on the one I get and use optics with it.

This purchase will primarily be for paper punching from a bench rest along with some offhand shooting. I'm also planning on getting into some competative shooting so I'd be looking for which model would be best in that catagory as well.

Any recommendations would be appreciated. I'm figuring this must of been covered before but I couldn't find what I was looking for with the search function. I hope this isn't TO repetative.

Thanks
 
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john kilgore

New member
If you're thinking organized competitive shooting, get the RRA DCM rifle. It comes with all the whistle and bells and runs around $1250.
Then, call M&A parts and get any other upper that suits your fancy for less than $400.00- (be sure to include another bolt/assembly, the bolt/assemblies should not be interchanged). By the time you add all the extra's to a M-4 to be competitive and legal (for competition), you'll have almost 2X the money invested.

And, if later you want to add a "space gun upper", You've already got the trigger, ect. on the lower.

FWIW.
 
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Steve Smith

New member
You don't need ot buy the RRA "DCM :barf: " CMP legal rifle or anything else until you know what you want to compete in. Talk to us.

Oh, and that RRA CMP legal rifle? It's a LONG way from $1250...try $800.
 
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MolonLabe416

New member
I'd suggest some version of the 20" barrel.
The short barrels have greatly increased blast and flash.
You loose significant MV at the 14.5" length.
You loose significant sight radius, unless you go with a Dissipator from BM.
If weight is any concern - doesn't sound like it - you can have the barrel fluted which will save a bit.
 
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Kevinch

New member
:eek: WOW!! :eek:

A 20' barrel? How would you hold a rifle with a barrel that is almost 7 yards long?? :D

(I had to say it before someone else did!)

Anyway, I faced the same choice you are facing now - except I don't compete - & I went with the 20" barrel.
 
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bad_dad_brad

New member
I don't compete, but after considering the M4 and the standard A2, I went with something in the middle, the 16" barrel Bushy shorty. Within 300 yards any of these choices would be plenty accurate combat wise. The M4 (which is really a 14.5" barrel with a compensator) will lose more energy at that distance than the others which reduces the combat effectiveness (55gr needs a certain FPS to tumble).

But the folks are right. What kind of competition are you considering?
 
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Rockrivr1

New member
Sorry for the delay in responding to your questions, holidays and all. I appreciate the feedback.

Right now I'm leaning towards the 20". Hummm, figure it's shorter then the 20' and much more easily manuveur around the range. :D

While I like the looks of the M4 better, I'd rather have better long distance accuracy with the longer bbl.

As far as competing with it goes, I was looking at High Power Rifle or something equivelant. My only concern with getting the 20" model was that it might be a little bit harder to handle if I want to try 3 gun competition.

Unfortunately I'm probably going to fall short of getting the DCM model as I've got enough saved for the M4 or the 20" Target model and I'm just to damn excited about getting one to wait another 2-3 months before I save enough to get the DCM model.

Plus there's a pretty big gun show up here in Mass next week and I'm hoping to pick up the new gun then.

Thanks for all the advice. Again, sorry for the delay in my response.
 
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IDPAguy

New member
I own a Bushmaster A2 Target 20" and a Bushmaster A2 Shorty carbine 16". The 20" is definitely better for high power and the 16" is definitely better for three gun or IDPA matches. It's not the barrel length but the weight of the barrel that makes the 20" unhandy for action competitions. I wish they made a 20" that wasn't a heavy barrel.
 
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ATTICUS

New member
That's the beauty of AR15's - one lower, two uppers.

Steve: Your right on about $850 retail, but the RR website does show an MSL of $1200.
 
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Steve Smith

New member
STOP STOP STOP STOP

If you want to get into Highpower Rifle, DO NOT get the Bushy "Target" !!! Not that it isn't accurate enough, but it will not have a Service Rifle legal float tube under the handguards, nor will it have "better" sights, both of which are practically REQUIRED if you want to get into this. If you can cool your jets a bit I can help you out so you don't wind up throwing good money after bad...if you can't do that, I won't chase you.


Awaiting your answer.
 
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labgrade

Member In Memoriam
I duuno, Rockrivr1.

Sounds like your thoughts on what you want your rifle to do are contradictary - somewhat.

One will do, while the other won't - as much.

A "close-in tactical" isn't neccesarily anything "long range." There's a trade-off.

In anything "long-range 16-wise," I'd defer to Steve Smith far as that goes.

Far as "close-in," how would it matter all that much? Just get something that goes bang every time ....
 
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Rovert

New member
And now, to confuse matters even more... I read over on AR15.com that the difference in accuracy and engery between the 14.5" and 16" barrels was negligible. The tradeoff between the two was that the shorter barrel exhibited less 'whip' when hot, and was lighter, than the longer barrel. Remember that we're talking only 1.5" between the M4gery and the Shorty. If you like the lighter weight, and aesthetics of the M4 profile, then my understanding is that we won't really see any significant difference in performance inside of 200 yards.
 
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Rockrivr1

New member
Ok, I'll admit that the excitement of getting the rifle next week was near to overwhelming.

I appreciate the perverbial "reality slap".

The reason I posted is to make sure I get the right rifle the first time and contrary to what my wife might think, i'm listening!

I've participated in a bunch of unsanctioned handgun shoots and have a great time doing it. I have an assortment of handguns though to meet the minimum requirments for those shoots. I should of taken that into account and looked a little more into the rules when I was deciding which AR model to get.

Steve, I'd appreciate any help and advice on getting the right one the first time. I figuring that it took me 7 months to save this much, 2 or 3 more won't hurt.

Let me throw this out. A guy in my state has a Colt 20" Competition H-Bar that he's selling with one 10 rnd and 4 20 rnd mags for $800. Would this get me where I need to go? It's virtually been unfired and stored in a safe for a few years

Thanks again for the help.

Troy
 
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Steve Smith

New member
No, the Colt won't have you in clover, either. Refer to the email I sent as to why. (no float tube is the big issue)

Let's talk a bit.

There are two main "divisions" in Highpower, Service Rifle and Match Rifle. In SR, you may only shoot an M1 Garand, an M14 or M1A, or an AR-15. When getting into this now there's no question what to shoot, AR-15 is the answer. Under SR rules, only the A2 (fixed handle) 20" version is allowed. What this means (and what is stated in the rule book) is that the rifle must appear as issued. The following exceptions are allowed: A free float tube that is hidden by the handguards, a stainless barrel, and improved sights that still appear as A2 sights (they may be made to track more accurately, but they must still looke the same), and a hood on the rear sight. Internal modifications are a-ok as long as the rifle is safe and the trigger is at least 4.5 lbs, either in one stage or two. In MR, you may shoot whatever centerfire rifle you want, as long as it has iron sights and may be reloaded quickly. Caliber doesn't matter. Bolt guns, spaceguns (fancy ARs), and whatever else is there. Both divisions shoot the same course of fire, and honestly, the MR only has an advantage at the very top (2%?) of HP. Technically, SR is harder to shoot because you can't shape the rifle to fit your body like you can in MR. SR uses the same type of rifle that fits in to the CMP EIC match rules, so you can also go after the highly prized Distinguished Rifleman badge. MR rifles can't compete in this competition.

So, decide what you want to shoot and reply. I'll do my best to point you in the right direction.
 
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Rockrivr1

New member
Steve,

Going by your explaination I would go with the Service Rifle division.

Again, I appreciate your time in walking me through this.

Troy
 
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Steve Smith

New member
Good deal. I shoot Service Rifle myself. Hopefully you read the thread at that link.

There are a lot of AR builders out there as you know. Unfortunately, most don't shoot Highpower and they really don't know what needs to go into it. It is really important to get a gun built by a guy who shoots the game and does it well. If you have unique issues such as load info you have questions about, the big guys won't know what to say, or will say, "Don't shoot reloads in our guns" which is BS. Hardly any HP shooters could afford to shoot factory match grade ammo as much as we do. A HP riflesmith won't ever suggest that you use factory, but will often give you suggested loads! I would suggest one route over all others. Go through John Holliger and get his Rock River upgrade upper. His website is http://www.alccrl.org/whiteoak/whiteoak.htm and you can get his email and phone there. Tell him I sent you (I'm in Colorado). A beginner will most likely not need the extras that he puts in his custom uppers, but his "RRA upgrade" uppers are just what the doctor ordered. RRA guns really have all the goodies for the best price. They have the strongest float tube (similar to the Armalite, which is also strong), very repeatable sights, and good barrels. John will do a few more tricks to it for a nominal charge and make sure its built right. John, like most HP smiths, only builds uppers. The lower is up to you. For it, find a local "friendly" dealer that will do a transfer for a song ($20 or so), have him send his FFL to RRA, then call them and pay for the "NM" (not an applicable title for an AR but they call it that) A2 lower and have it sent to him. Dealer price is $240 including 2 stage trigger. You won't even have to pay sales tax on it unless you're in Il. You then give your FFL holder his song and dance, and his $20 and you put the two together. Take out the two pins and send the trigger, hammer, and springs to John with a check for $25. He'll return the best service rifle trigger you can imagine (BETTER than the Jewell, equal with Knights and Millazo). Now you have an almost-custom AR that CAN WIN nationals if you can...all for a tad less than $900 IIRC. Easy, huh?

Trust me, this is the best path you can take. If you need more references, I can point you in that direction too.


BTW, did I mention that John is the 2002 Civilian Service Rifle National Champion, a High Master, member of the 495 club, and is of course a Distinguished Rifleman?
 
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SaltyCracker

New member
What is the difference between the A1 and A2 sights?

Saw one with a 26" barrel .. does it give much of an increase in accuracy over the 20"?

Probably stupid questions, aye?
 
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