Bush and the DC case

toybox99615

New member
OK maybe I'm just out of touch with reality. But I think the story in the NYT as I read it indicates the Bush administration does not want the court to uphold the individual right under the 2nd. http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/17/washington/17scotus.html?ref=us

As I read this it appears the Bush administration is afraid the decision to see the 2nd as an individual right will lead to the inability of the Feds to use existing laws such as the 1934 act.

Have I completely misread the NYT story?
 

hammer4nc

Moderator
Political payback...

This conflicting DOJ position has everything to do with the installation of Mukasey as atty general, by noted gun grabber Chuck Schumer. Remember, Mukasey's name was first raised by Sen. Schumer on Meet the Press, in March 2007, months before Alberto's forced resignation.

Bush, as a weak lame duck, was forced to sack Gonzales and agreed to Schumer's Mukasey appointment; in exchange, the democrats lightened up on the constant threats of impeachment and media harassment. Relative peace for his final months in office.
 

Bruxley

New member
Doesn't the article state that there exists a conflict within the administration AGAINST the DOJ brief. It says the Cheney signed on with 300 or so Congress members to find DC's law UNCONSTITUTIONAL 'per se'. That it is obviously unconstitutional. The DOJ brief seems to be the odd man out in the Administration. Where are we coming up with the Administration being against the 2nd Amendment here? Clement’s DOJ brief is COUNTER to the brief the Administration signed on to with the Congress members.

from the article in the OP said:
But Vice President Dick Cheney was nonetheless so provoked by Mr. Clement’s approach that last month he took the highly unusual step for a vice president of signing on to a brief filed by more than 300 members of Congress that asks the Supreme Court to declare the District of Columbia law “unconstitutional per se.” (Mr. Clement’s brief, by contrast, says that “a per se rule is clearly out of place in the Second Amendment context” because at the time the amendment itself coexisted with the “reasonable restrictions on firearms” that were in place at the time.)

The Congressional brief, circulated by Senator Kay Bailey Hutchison, Republican of Texas, asserts that “no purpose would be served by remanding this case for further fact finding or other proceedings.” The case “involves nothing more than the right of law-abiding persons to keep common handguns and usable firearms for lawful self-defense in the home,” the brief says.

The conservative columnist Robert D. Novak, who often reflects views from inside the Bush administration, wrote Thursday in The Washington Post that there was “puzzlement over Clement” and an expectation “in government circles” that the solicitor general would “amend his position when he actually faces the justices.”


GoSlash said:
No, you've read it right. At this point our president is to the left of Obama on this matter.
That's HARLDY to the left of Obama or Hillary. They not only like banning guns but want to further restrict what guns you own stop conceal carry. Please clarify how that is to the right of the what the article says the administration wants GoSlash. How are they left of Obama and Hillary? Are we again making assumptions then forming conclusions on those assunptions and passing that off as substance?
 

alan

New member
the following is copied and pasted from NY Times on-line.

Gun Case Causes Bush Administration Rift
LINDA GREENHOUSE
Published: March 17, 2008
WASHINGTON — Suppose that after decades of silence on the subject, the Supreme Court was to decide that the Second Amendment protects an individual right to gun ownership, as opposed to a right tied to service in a militia.

Such a ruling would be a cause for dancing in the streets by proponents of the individual-rights view — or so it might seem. After all, the great majority of federal courts have long refused to read the Second Amendment as protecting an individual right, and the Supreme Court itself has said nothing for nearly 70 years.

But nothing is quite that straightforward when it comes to the case to be argued Tuesday on the constitutionality of the District of Columbia’s strict gun-control law. Judging by the sniping from within the Bush administration at its own solicitor general, Paul D. Clement, for a brief he filed in the case, a long-awaited declaration by the Supreme Court that the Second Amendment protects an individual right would not be nearly enough.

The local law, which dates to 1976, is generally regarded as the strictest gun-control statute in the country. It not only bars the private possession of handguns, but also requires rifles and shotguns to be kept in a disassembled state or under a trigger lock. Mr. Clement’s brief embraces the individual-rights position, which has been administration policy since 2001 when John Ashcroft, then the attorney general, first declared it in a public letter to the National Rifle Association. But the brief does not take the next step and ask the justices to declare, as the federal appeals court here did a year ago, that the District of Columbia law is unconstitutional.

Not that the solicitor general’s brief finds the law to be constitutional, or even desirable. Far from it: the brief offers a road map for finding the law unconstitutional, but by a different route from the one the appeals court took. The distinction may seem almost picayune, but it is a measure of the passions engendered by anything to do with guns that Mr. Clement’s approach is evidently being seen in some administration circles as close to a betrayal.

The brief argues that in striking down the District of Columbia’s law, the United States Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit took too “categorical” an approach, one that threatens the constitutionality of federal gun laws, like the current ban on machine guns. Mr. Clement asks the justices to vacate the decision and send the case back to the appeals court for a more nuanced appraisal of the issue.

This was a fairly standard performance for a solicitor general, who has a statutory obligation to defend acts of Congress. It is routine for any solicitor general to try to steer the court away from deciding cases in a way that could harm federal interests in future cases.

But Vice President Dick Cheney was nonetheless so provoked by Mr. Clement’s approach that last month he took the highly unusual step for a vice president of signing on to a brief filed by more than 300 members of Congress that asks the Supreme Court to declare the District of Columbia law “unconstitutional per se.” (Mr. Clement’s brief, by contrast, says that “a per se rule is clearly out of place in the Second Amendment context” because at the time the amendment itself coexisted with the “reasonable restrictions on firearms” that were in place at the time.)

The Congressional brief, circulated by Senator Kay Bailey Hutchison, Republican of Texas, asserts that “no purpose would be served by remanding this case for further fact finding or other proceedings.” The case “involves nothing more than the right of law-abiding persons to keep common handguns and usable firearms for lawful self-defense in the home,” the brief says.

The conservative columnist Robert D. Novak, who often reflects views from inside the Bush administration, wrote Thursday in The Washington Post that there was “puzzlement over Clement” and an expectation “in government circles” that the solicitor general would “amend his position when he actually faces the justices.”

Those who have watched the 41-year-old Mr. Clement, a veteran of nearly four dozen arguments who enjoys the respect of justices across the ideological spectrum, think it most unlikely that he would bow to pressure of this sort. “Don’t count on it,” Martin S. Lederman, a Georgetown University law professor and former Justice Department lawyer, wrote on the Web site Scotusblog, adding that “the institutional cost to the office of such a reversal” would be high.

However it eventually plays out, the inside-the-administration drama underscores a point that has largely been lost in the run-up to the argument in this high-profile case: a ruling that the Constitution guarantees an individual as opposed to a collective right to gun ownership would be far from the end of the age-old debate over the meaning of the Second Amendment. To borrow from Winston Churchill, it would only be the end of the beginning.

The court would then have to move to the next stage, defining what an individual right actually entails and what government regulations it permits. In constitutional analysis, this is where the rubber meets the road. For every constitutional right, the court chooses a standard of review, essentially a determination of how high a bar the government has to clear in order to justify a regulation impinging on the right.

A slightly different version, specific individuals were unmentioned, appeared in today's Pittsburgh Post-Gazette. Looking at the source of the article, The N.Y. Times, long the source of anti-gun diatribes, the article as it appeared in today's Pgh P-G was quite reasonable. Re what was printed in Pgh P-G, it doesn't come up at their on-line edition, and I don't have a scanner.
 

GoSlash27

New member
Bruxley,
Perhaps you've missed Bush's repeated pleas for a ruling that "establishes an individual right but protects all Federal regulations"?
http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2008-02-26-guns-cover_N.htm
That's well to the left of what Obama's been saying. Plus we've got an additional 15 minutes of argument strictly on behalf of the Federal government that's going to support that viewpoint (Lord only knows how they plan on arguing it).

Face it; your guy George is not a friend of the 2nd Amdt and never has been.
 

Bruxley

New member
GoSlash said:
Perhaps you've missed Bush's repeated pleas for a ruling that "establishes an individual right but protects all Federal regulations"?
That's well to the left of what Obama's been saying. Plus we've got an additional 15 minutes of argument strictly on behalf of the Federal government that's going to support that viewpoint (Lord only knows how they plan on arguing it).

If such 'pleas' (you used quotes so I assume you have one) have been as repeated as you report then please give reference to said quoted pleas. Also you stated the alleged pleas are to the left of what Obama has been saying but you didn't tell us what Obama has been saying that is to the right of this. An Obama quote that is right would add to your assertion.

I very well could be wrong but the Feds don't have a dog in the fight in Heller. It's Heller vs. DC not Heller vs. The United States so the 15 minutes of argument strictly on behalf of the Federal Government also needs some clarification.

Sorry but your simply stating things has shown to not pan out so far. Bush being left of Obama on the 2nd is going to be another example I believe.

Your guy Obama is no friend of the 2nd Amendment. From what the article in the OP has described, the administration seems to be to the point of going against their own DOJ's brief.

Got anything to back up your assertions or is it like I said, forming conclusions from assumptions and trying to pass that as substance.

Admit it, you just flung that out there for the " :eek: " didn't ya'...........
 

Glenn E. Meyer

New member
Bush screwed this up - by intention or being oblivious - that's for historians and neuropsychologists to decide.

Only convoluted logic and cognitive dissonance will allow one to think that Bush was a proactive champion of the RKBA.

Standard rejoiner - did you want Gore or Kerry? That's irrelevant as we knew they were going to be antis.

You might also read an analysis of the disbanding of the Iraqi Army in the Times today - he was caught be surprise and then let that stupid thing happen. That's George for you.
 

Bruxley

New member
Who called Bush a pro-active champion of the RKBA???? Your arguing against assertions not made.

I don't believe ANYONE at the Federal level is going to champion the RKBA. The founders seem to have had the same belief and that is WHY they wrote the 2nd.

How is the Iraqi Army AT ALL relevent to this discussion BTW????? It's a 5YEAR OLD issue. But with Petreaus soon to give another report on Iraq a 'tone' needs to be established as 'the ad' didn't go as planned last time.
 

publius42

New member
Doesn't the article state that there exists a conflict within the administration AGAINST the DOJ brief. It says the Cheney signed on with 300 or so Congress members to find DC's law UNCONSTITUTIONAL 'per se'. That it is obviously unconstitutional. The DOJ brief seems to be the odd man out in the Administration. Where are we coming up with the Administration being against the 2nd Amendment here? Clement’s DOJ brief is COUNTER to the brief the Administration signed on to with the Congress members.

No, it seems more like Cheney is the odd man out in this case. He parted ways with the adminstration by signing the Congressional pro-gun brief.

Clement's brief was issued by the DOJ, an executive department. If Bush disagreed with that brief, he had the power to prevent its release, or fire Clement. He did not do those things, and did nothing to indicate his disagreement with the DOJ brief.

You seem to believe that Bush disagrees with his Solicitor General, but not enough to fire him or otherwise indicate his displeasure with the brief. Your basis for that belief, if any?
 

MrApathy

New member
Dont see Bush moving to the right any of the DC gunban which allows no concealed carry except for privileged class. people with jobs in LE or security cannot keep pistols in own home. rifles and shotguns may be owned but have to be disassembled or thoroughly locked up.

its right up their with hillary/obama
 

Bruxley

New member
Clement's brief was issued by the DOJ, an executive department. If Bush disagreed with that brief, he had the power to prevent its release, or fire Clement. He did not do those things, and did nothing to indicate his disagreement with the DOJ brief.
Assumptions to substance again......that's called sophistry.

Inaction is interpreted as tacit agreement but his VP acted in opposition and still inaction, tacit agreement there too no? More assumption to substance sophistry.

Still waiting for Bush's pleas and Obama's right-of-Bush statements to be quoted.

Is the article's content not describing a split within the administration with their own DOJ?
 

publius42

New member
By the way, for those wondering why there are so darn many extra commas loaded into the second amendment, and why there seem to be more and more commas the further left the publication leans, you may be interested in where all those commas really came from. It was a scribe getting fancy with the parchment, but the actual version which was agreed upon and passed has only ONE comma:

A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

Needless to say, the New York Times has the incorrect version, with extraneous commas inserted after the word the words "militia" and "arms."
 

publius42

New member
Inaction is interpreted as tacit agreement but his VP acted in opposition and still inaction, tacit agreement there too no?

Does the President have the power to control what the VP does in his role as President of the Senate? Can he fire him?

And again I ask for some basis for your belief that Bush does not agree with his Solicitor General on this brief. Is there any evidence at all that he does not agree with him?
 

Bruxley

New member
Show me some EVIDENCE he does. Gather assumptions where you wish. But there is a saying about assumptions.......

Waiting for the substance............
 

publius42

New member
Clement’s DOJ brief is COUNTER to the brief the Administration signed on to with the Congress members.

Saying "the administration" signed the Congressional brief is not exactly accurate. It was Cheney, in his role as President of the Senate, who signed it. The Senate is not part of the administration, and Bush is not President of the Senate.

You are mixing the two together in what seems a deliberate attempt to use Cheney's vote to erase the shame of the (Bush) DOJ's brief. Saying "the administration" signed the pro-gun Congressional brief is a lie.
 

publius42

New member
There are two possibilities here:

One of Bush's employees went out and submitted a brief on his behalf with which the President disagrees, but he has offered no evidence of his disagreement.

One of Bush's employees went out and submitted a brief on his behalf with which the President agrees, and he has let his silence on the issue confirm his assent.

I say that if your employee does something you think is wrong, you say so and try to correct the problem. If you don't say something and you do nothing to correct the problem, I will assume you don't think there is anything wrong. In a situation like this one, I'd say proof is needed that Bush actually disapproves of the brief his administration issued, or it will be assumed that he approves of the brief his administration issued.
 

Bruxley

New member
Well your ability to create is interesting for sure. You are now exemplifying sophistry. Your last post is replete with assumption passed off as substance.

-Cheney isn't part of the administration now....hrmmm
-You have imparted on your own the Cheney acted as 'President of the Senate' when in reality that role is ONLY to break ties in votes. The majority leader administers the Senate, NOT the VP.
-Typing (Bush)DOJ brief as if he directed the DOJ to write it is simply intellectually dishonest.

Your determined to try and create something out of nothing more then assumption. It's obviously nothing more substantial than that. CHOOSE to believe what you want ever assumptions you would like.

GOT THAT SUBSTANCE YET?

say that if your employee does something you think is wrong, you say so(privately to that employee as they are otherwise competent to spare the attacks of political rivals calling for their resignation) and try to correct the problem. If you don't say something (publicly)and you do nothing(publicly) to correct the problem(except accept the VP demonstrating an opposing stance), I will assume you don't think there is anything wrong. In a situation like this one, I'd say proof is needed that Bush actually disapproves (or does approve) of the brief his (employee within his) administration issued, or it will be assumed that he approves (or disapproves) of the brief his (employee within his) administration issued.(as you wish)/[
red accents the assumptions passed off as substance in this sophistry and some was added in parenthesis to restore some intellectual honesty.

from the article in the OP said:
The conservative columnist Robert D. Novak, who often reflects views from inside the Bush administration, wrote Thursday in The Washington Post that there was “puzzlement over Clement” and an expectation “in government circles” that the solicitor general would “amend his position when he actually faces the justices.”
bold mine

Publicly opposing the DOJ brief would undermined that Department heads ability to do his job, set him up for being devoured by political rivals, and present a potential vacancy in that department that would have to go through another confirmation process to fill. Not to mention what sophistry would be created from it. Seems that the administration is using less overt means to address the matter.
 
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publius42

New member
The Constitution is available online, but...

US Constitution Article 1, Section 3:

The Vice President of the United States shall be President of the Senate, but shall have no vote, unless they be equally divided.

I said only that Cheney was speaking in his constitutionally designated role as President of the Senate, and that he was NOT speaking for the administration.

Do you have something to back up your statement that he was speaking for the administration?

Clement’s DOJ brief is COUNTER to the brief the Administration signed on to with the Congress members.
 
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Master Blaster

New member
No, you've read it right. At this point our president is to the left of Obama on this matter.

Horse manure, If Obama gets elected there will be an assault weapon ban written by Carolyn McCarthy enacted into law. Obama has stated in the past that he would ban all handguns and all semiautomatics from civilian possession. That is what the Liberal Looney Left wants, its legislation they have proposed, and Obama supports it and will sign it.
 
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