Bullpups

[Photon Guy]

I am considering investing in a bullpup rifle. From what I know the bullpup has the advantages of weight reduction and maneuverability. With a bullpup you can have the same barrel length as with a standard configuration and have a shorter overall weapon length. Thus if you want the greater accuracy and muzzle velocity that would come with a longer barrel without having to increase the overall length of the weapon you can simply use a bullpup configuration instead of the standard configuration. A shorter and less awkward rifle will be more maneuverable. Also bullpups tend to be lighter. Now, from what I know the disadvantages of a bullpup is that the balance will be a bit off. A bullpup is less well balanced than a standard configuration rifle. Also, if you're using iron sights a bullpup will have a shorter sight radius and thus less accuracy. However, I would think if you use a scope instead of iron sights than since you have no sight radius accuracy shouldn't be a problem.

 

[T. O'Heir]

"...bullpups tend to be lighter..." Nope. The Tavor, for example, weighs between 7 and 8 pounds. One of 'em with a 16.5" barrel weighs 7.9 pounds. Heavier than a 20" AR-15. About the same as an M-4 Carbine.
The mag is in the wrong place for quick changes when shooting prone. The only advantage to a bull pup is it's length when in an armoured vehicle. And braggin' rights on a range.
"...thus less accuracy..." Far more involved than sight radius. Sight radius doesn't affect accuracy anyway.

 

[roashooter]

what T.Oheir said... bout sums it up

 

[benEzra]

All my bullpup experience is with the Tavor, so everything below will be in the context of that rifle.

I am considering investing in a bullpup rifle. From what I know the bullpup has the advantages of weight reduction and maneuverability.

Not overall weight reduction, but definitely weight reduction up front. The 16.5" Tavor with a light and optic balances right at the handgrip, and feels lighter than an AR when shouldered because more of the weight is supported by your shoulder vs. your hands. One-handed manipulation is easier than with an AR; the Tavor can be shot accurately one-handed from either shoulder (even from the left shoulder with the right hand), which is a useful trait in an in-home carbine.

The short length and less mass up front also results in less inertia, so it is faster handling than any full-length AR. I'm just a casual USPSA shooter, but at least for me, the bullpup is the better carbine for inside 25 yards, and definitely the better choice as an HD carbine.

With a bullpup you can have the same barrel length as with a standard configuration and have a shorter overall weapon length. Thus if you want the greater accuracy and muzzle velocity that would come with a longer barrel without having to increase the overall length of the weapon you can simply use a bullpup configuration instead of the standard configuration.

True. I have a 16" AR, and with the stock full short, the Tavor comes just about to the front of the handguard. I think the Tavor is roughly the same length as a 8" or 10" barreled AR would be, about 27.5". So for the same OAL, you certainly have much better ballistics with the Tavor. And importantly for a home-defense carbine, you also have the muzzle blast and flash of a 16.5" barrel rather than a 10" or 8" barrel.

Now, from what I know the disadvantages of a bullpup is that the balance will be a bit off. A bullpup is less well balanced than a standard configuration rifle.

I had read that also, but actually having used both, I now think the bullpup actually has the superior balance.

Also, if you're using iron sights a bullpup will have a shorter sight radius and thus less accuracy. However, I would think if you use a scope instead of iron sights than since you have no sight radius accuracy shouldn't be a problem.

A red dot definitely plays better to the bullpup's strength (fast handling, quick transitions) than iron sights do. The Tavor's iron sights are serviceable, but far slower to pick up than a dot.

As far as accuracy goes, an AR is going to be more accurate at extended ranges because you can free-float the barrel; a Tavor's barrel is not free-floated, and bullpups are also harder to shoot from a bench (switching to a 20-round magazine from the bench or prone helps). The Tavor's forte is as an HD carbine that is shootable out to 400 yards or so, but it trades some precision at distance for better handling at close range.

 

[benEzra]

"...bullpups tend to be lighter..." Nope. The Tavor, for example, weighs between 7 and 8 pounds. One of 'em with a 16.5" barrel weighs 7.9 pounds. Heavier than a 20" AR-15. About the same as an M-4 Carbine.

Agreed. The Tavor puts much more of that mass close to the shoulder, though, and much less out front.

The mag is in the wrong place for quick changes when shooting prone.

It's in a slightly better place (IMO) for quick changes when shooting from the shoulder, though, and in the case of the Tavor, the bolt release and (IMO) mag release are better placed.

All firearms are a tradeoff between close range and long range; red dot vs. magnified scope, shorter barrel vs. longer barrel, etc. The bullpup is a little more optimized for tight quarters, the AR is a little more optimized for longer range and for shooting from prone. Pick whatever suits your own circumstances better.

For shooting from prone with a bullpup, I would recommend using 20-rounders rather than 30's, though.

The only advantage to a bull pup is it's length when in an armoured vehicle.

Or in your house.

 

[44 AMP]

The original Bullpup rifles were custom built varmint rifles, bolt action or single shot, made back in the late 20s or early 30s. The advantages were a full rifle length barrel in a much shorter, handy package, or an extra long barrel (for the highest velocity) in a gun the same length as a standard rifle.

The down sides were often a less than perfect trigger pull, due to the long linkage involved, and if anything went seriously wrong, your cheek was VERY close to the chamber!

The Steyr AUG proved the concept had military application, but the AUG itself has proven to be less than ..optimal. At least one of the nations that adopted the AUG have since replaced it with an M16 variant.

In a varmint rifle, the balance doesn't matter much, compared to other applications. Semi & select fire bullpups by design put the bulk of the weight to the rear of the rifle. This has pros and cons, but is generally considered to be more limiting than conventional rifles.

I've never personally used one, so I really can't say, but while they look neat, they also look awkward to me.

 

[benEzra]

The Steyr AUG proved the concept had military application, but the AUG itself has proven to be less than ..optimal. At least one of the nations that adopted the AUG have since replaced it with an M16 variant.

I wanted an AUG for a long time, and handled one in a store, but in the end my choice came down to ergonomics. I don't care for crossbolt-type safeties like the AUG's (I think they are slow and awkward, whereas AR-style thumb safeties are quick and easy to flick on an off as needed), and I didn't care for the AUG's bolt release and mag release setup. I did like the AUG's quick-change barrel, though.

In a varmint rifle, the balance doesn't matter much, compared to other applications. Semi & select fire bullpups by design put the bulk of the weight to the rear of the rifle. This has pros and cons, but is generally considered to be more limiting than conventional rifles.

I've never personally used one, so I really can't say, but while they look neat, they also look awkward to me.

Having more weight out front certainly does steady a gun more for longer-range shooting, at least from unbraced positions. The less mass out front, the easier the muzzle is to disturb, and vice versa.

I personally find the Tavor's more rearward balance less awkward than an AR in fast transitions, switching shoulders, magazine changes (when not prone), and anytime you are running the charging handle or need to manipulate something else with your support hand (doorknob, cell phone, whatever). So again, I think it is good to figure out what niche you are looking to fill. AUG's and Tavors are better HD guns than they are long-range guns; you won't see any of them in F-class benchrest, but there are plenty of heavy-barrel AR's playing in that field. Different horses for different courses...although I have read that the AUG is a little more accurate than the Tavor.

Also, keep in mind that the best comparison to an AUG or a Tavor are other 27"-28" rifles (of which most are SBR's). A 10" AR will have a less-forward weight balance than a 16" does, and a 10" AR with a red dot won't be much more accurate than a Tavor at 400+ yards, with worse ballistics at all distances.

There is one big downside to the Tavor, AUG, and other bullpups that hasn't been mentioned yet, and that is cost. The AR benefits from being produced in the USA by probably 50+ companies all competing with each other on cost, from 50+ years of production experience, and from economies of scale since it is the most popular centerfire rifle on the market. The AUG and Tavor both cost upwards of $1500 new, and while you get a lot of neat features (CHF 1:7 barrel and tritium BUIS on the Tavor, for example), you can buy an AR with those features for $500-$700 less. The Tavor's gas system also vents excess gas from the stock vents, making them not the best choice for shooting with a sound suppressor for those who own them. But other than that, I think they are great little rifles.

 

[Photon Guy]

The bullpup will certainly not win in a beauty contest but than again reliability in a gun is not a beauty contest anyway.

 

[straightshooterjake]

Grant Cunningham has written written several good articles about using bullpup rifles. Grant is a well respected defensive trainer and the author of numerous books. I have no connection to him other than following his blog.

His articles have been focused on the Steyr AUG, but he also discusses principles that apply to all bullpups. You can find most of his articles about bullpups linked from this page:

http://www.grantcunningham.com/tag/bullpups/

The articles on this page are in chronological order with the newest at the top, so if you are reading the articles, it may make sense to start from the bottom of the page.

 

[MarkCO]

I have shot several Tavors and have an RDB. Also played with the DT and Aug a few times. I would say that benEzra's post is generally applicable to the bullpups.

Shooting head to head with 10, 16 and 18 inch barreled AR15s, the difference in accuracy goes to the AR15s across the board. But the bullpup gives you a shorter firearm without the muzzle blast of the SBR nor the $200 tax stamp. With a little bit of practice, I was able to shoot prone, do mag changes and all that without a significant difference in time, but stabilizing for prone is certainly more of a challenge with the bullpups.

The thing that actually bothers me more with the bullpups than anything else is the difficulty in seeing an empty chamber. With my RDB, I really gave up and use a tactile method to confirm clear.

 

[T. O'Heir]

And none of any of this means you shouldn't rush out and squander the rent/mortgage money on one, if you can afford to do so. Pricey things so they are. Tavor runs around 2 grand. And a guy needs his toys.

 

[waveslayer]

I am considering investing in a bullpup rifle. From what I know the bullpup has the advantages of weight reduction and maneuverability. With a bullpup you can have the same barrel length as with a standard configuration and have a shorter overall weapon length. Thus if you want the greater accuracy and muzzle velocity that would come with a longer barrel without having to increase the overall length of the weapon you can simply use a bullpup configuration instead of the standard configuration. A shorter and less awkward rifle will be more maneuverable. Also bullpups tend to be lighter. Now, from what I know the disadvantages of a bullpup is that the balance will be a bit off. A bullpup is less well balanced than a standard configuration rifle. Also, if you're using iron sights a bullpup will have a shorter sight radius and thus less accuracy. However, I would think if you use a scope instead of iron sights than since you have no sight radius accuracy shouldn't be a problem.

What kind of bullpup are you referring to? A bolt action bullpup or semi auto?

They are not lighter by any means, they mainly reduce the overall length. They are great for carrying around because of sure size.
Accuracy benefits depend. I reload so my Tavor shoots sub MOA. My DTA shoots well below a sub MOA in all of its calibers that I have for it. I personally love bullpups. They have their place and shoot well, especially the Tavor for CQB.

The DTA is superior because of its overall size, accuracy, and ability to switch calibers in a matter of 60 seconds.

My wife thinks I only have 3 guns

 

[ttarp]

My brother bought a Tavor, I bought an AUG. At the range side by side, we both slightly prefer the AUG, but there's no denying the Tavor's controls are much better thought out for speed and ease of use.

Of course the new X95 pretty much takes all the good aspects of the Tavor and trades them for more AR like features, but different strokes for different folks I suppose.

The downsides to the bullup are the triggers aren't anything special unless you pay $$$ for a geissele, and if you're into the tacticool shooting they don't do so well at switching between left and righthanded shooting at the range. You can get by with the Tavor without too much trouble, but don't try it with the AUG.

Other than that you have a shorter, better balanced rifle with no significant disadvantages over conventional rifles.

 

[MarkCO]

The KelTec RDB actually has a decent (not great) trigger out of the box. The DTs I shot had good triggers.

The big thing I forgot to include in my post is the lack of ability to modify, change adapt the bullpups to an individuals tastes, size, etc. They are pretty much what they are.

 

[benEzra]

and if you're into the tacticool shooting they don't do so well at switching between left and righthanded shooting at the range

I can't speak for the AUG, but I personally find the Tavor easier and quicker to switch to the opposite shoulder than my AR, at least when running a 2-point sling, and shooting left-handed around barricades and such in carbine matches is a cinch. Case ejection is low and forward enough that it doesn't pelt you with brass, though it's possible that a V-neck shirt might occasionally catch a case. I run a Blue Force quick-adjust 2-point sling (Vickers style) from the left-side forward swivel to the right-side rear swivel, which works from either shoulder.

One thing that I haven't tried yet is rollover prone on the right side; it would be ejecting cases in very close proximity to the ground, so I'm not sure if you could bounce a case back into the ejection port or not. I suppose that could be an issue with an AR as well in that position, though.

I will say that one thing an AR is decidedly better at than a Tavor is shooting under barriers in a conventional prone position. A Tavor is taller than an AR, and with a 30-round PMAG you have to take a fairly tall prone position, several inches higher than an AR. Switching to a shorter 20-rounder helps you a lot, but you still can't get as low as an AR with a 20-rounder.

 

[MarkCO]

Rollover prone is, for me much better with the bullpup design, as is switching shoulders. A bullpup suppressed...might be the best firearm on the planet to shoot under cars and other positions needed to be as close to the ground as possible.

 

[ttarp]

I should have specified I was talking about the brass to the face issue, which most folks report it to be a non issue with the Tavor, but you couldn't pay me to try it with the AUG.

 

[waveslayer]

Everyone complains about the triggers on the bullpups. The AUG has a nice trigger, not the lightest, same with the Tavor... but with practice and a lot of rounds down range it doesn't bother me. The X95 has a much nicer stock trigger and my DTA is set at 1 Pound. So that's an old myth that was an issue years ago!

My wife thinks I only have 3 guns

 

[Photon Guy]

What kind of bullpup are you referring to? A bolt action bullpup or semi auto?

A semi auto, in 7.62 by 39 caliber.

 

[Old Bill Dibble]

Sight radius doesn't affect accuracy anyway.

Since the OP was talking about iron sights, math and science are disagreeing with you.