Bullet Length in Relation to OAL

scatterbrain

New member
Weather is really bad today, so I have been measuring bullets, by weight, by OAL, and by Hornady Comparator. And, after carefully loading a few 22-250 rounds I measured the OAL of the cartridge, off by about .008".
By marking a ring with the Hornady Comparator on the bullets and measuring from the base of the bullet there is a difference of up to .008", even thought the bullets have been presorted to the nearest .0005". I then marked aring around the bullet with the bullet seater removed from my die, and there is no consistant measurement there either, off by as much as .008". That would lead me to believe that not only is the length of the bullets inconsistant, the profile is not consistant either.
By using only bullets of one length, 0 tolerance, I have set them to the same OAL from cartridge base to tip of bullet. This should set the base of the bullet in the same position in each case and the expansion ratio should be the same, right? It's been a slow day.
 
Yep. Bullets off different tooling sets is the first thing that comes to mind. The dies are usually hand-finished and apparently that leads to some variation. But inexact or slightly uneven lube application or imperfectly uniform jacket wall thickness or slight variation in core slug alloy off different spools could all contribute.

Anyway, I've measured the same variation in ogive to bullet base location in Sierra match bullets, so its not uncommon. In finished rounds, bullets being slightly tipped when the seating die makes contact CA also affect COL a little.
 

MarkCO

New member
OAL is not as important as having the distance from the lands to the ogive, when chambered, be the same. Literally, the portion of the bullet past the ogive is irrelevant as long as the bullet weights are the same.

Case head to ogive, that is what you measure for accuracy. OAL is what you measure when you have no way to measure the base to ogive distance.
 

Bart B.

New member
If you want all bullets to have the same jump distance to the rifling in the throat, measure from the case shoulder to the bullet diameter where it touches the throat. That's typically about. 002" smaller than the bullet's diameter. Case heads have a couple thousandths spread in clearance to the bolt face when fired.

As the throat touch point on the bullet erodes .001 inch further every few dozen shots, you may want to compensate for that by seating bullets a bit less to keep them having the same jump to rifling distance.
 

scatterbrain

New member
Let me edit the .0002" to .002", maybe that would be better for velocity consideration.
Markco, how would OAL not effect the clearance to the lands. I want to set and keep my clearance at 0 to the lands.
Bart, what I want is a zero SD, and one of the possibilities for that to happen is a constant ratio of expansion and with changing profiles on the bullet, even thought very small, the base of the bullet is not in the same place every time. I know that I can get them in the same place by sorting my bullets by length and setting to the same OAL of the cartridge. The next pretty day I'm set to try some loads having the the same bullets but different OAL. Again, I'm only looking for SD improvement.
As I said, the weather is bad
 

Bart B.

New member
Let me edit the .0002" to .002", maybe that would be better for velocity consideration.
Markco, how would OAL not effect the clearance to the lands. I want to set and keep my clearance at 0 to the lands.
Bart, what I want is a zero SD, and one of the possibilities for that to happen is a constant ratio of expansion and with changing profiles on the bullet, even thought very small, the base of the bullet is not in the same place every time. I know that I can get them in the same place by sorting my bullets by length and setting to the same OAL of the cartridge. The next pretty day I'm set to try some loads having the the same bullets but different OAL. Again, I'm only looking for SD improvement.
As I said, the weather is bad
First thing needed is repeatable rifle holding.

Second, firing pin spring with in specs rating

primers with repeatable flame output. Test several lots for minimal velocity spread.

Third thing needed for zero standard deviation in velocity is powder charges whose pressure curves are identical across all shots.

Forth is repeatable bullet grip by case neck; bullet extraction force.

If you desire bullets against the throat, resizing case necks down enough to hold the bullet gently shallow enough to get pushed deeper into the case neck as they touch the throat.

The bullet's position in the barrel when fired is determined by the distance from the case shoulder to the bullet ogive touch point on the throat. Case heads are varying amounts off the bolt face when fired. Case shoulder is hard against the chamber shoulder and sometimes set back a couple thousandths or more from firing pin impact before firing.
 
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RC20

New member
I have run loads that the COAL was off the lands .010 then had the bullet of an identical one jam in the lands.

That is on Hornady but had some variation show up on Nossler as well.

One was so bad I threw it away, backed of .020 and it still hit.

Possibly it was a stray different model bullet from the mfg that got into the mix -
 

MarkCO

New member
Markco, how would OAL not effect the clearance to the lands. I want to set and keep my clearance at 0 to the lands.

Forget OAL, you want ogive to land distance held constant. Where the tip of the bullet is in relation to the start of that lands, that never sees the gas pressure nor touches the rifling, does not matter. And, you don't want 0 clearance from the lands to the ogive. It depends on the rifle and the bullet. A jump of 0 means you are literally, chasing the lands, which is a fools errand. Back if off where it works well for the given parameters and adjust at each cleaning of the bore, which for most of my rifles is about 800 rounds.
 
Per rimfire, the 0.002" effect on the powder space is good for about 1 fps. But the other thing it affects is the gas bypass around the bullet, which QL and GRT have no model to account for. In general, for gas bypass, the closer you are to the lands, the bigger the percent effect a small variation will have.

Bart is correct that the shoulder-to-bullet-throat-contact-point on the ogive is what actually determines bullet jump. The firing pin drives the case forward so its shoulder stops on the shoulder of the chamber, then the bullet is in its final position. If the cartridge does not have a crimped primer, the primer will drive it forward, too. Someone firing primed empty cases found just firing primers would set his case shoulders back a couple of thousandths, but I forget the details. You can try the experiment yourself. If you can measure the effect, you probably want to seat to allow for it, and you will want to use cases with the same load history.

I built a gauge for measuring this long ago, but about three years later Redding came out with their Instant Indicator which does this and will do a couple of other things as well. Just choose the neck bushing for the Ogive at about 0.001-0.002" under bullet OD for secant ogive bullets and use a bore diameter insert for tangent ogive bullets and you will have the point of throat contact registered in most instances. The Instant Indicator is cartridge-specific to get the shoulder contact right, so be prepared to shell out some money if you are interested in using one for more than one chambering.

You can also make that measurement with the Hornady tool, first measuring the head-to-shoulder dimension with a case comparator insert, then making the head to bullet ogive measurement, noting both and subtracting the one from the other, and using this difference as the basis for matching your loaded rounds. You can calibrate for each insert by zeroing it with the jaws closed on it before you put a cartridge in. However, I recommend you replace the Hornady bullet comparator insert with one of the Sinclair stainless steel inserts, as the latter are cut to mimic a throat and contact the bullet further down and at a more representative location than the aluminum Hornady insert does.

All the things Bart outlined about primers are important, but I will also mention seating them to reconsolidate about 0.003" deeper than where the anvil touches down in the bottom of the primer pocket. This is very hard seating. It pushes the anvil that far into the mix (what Allan Jones calls "setting the bridge", meaning the quantity of priming mix bridging the gap between the tip of the anvil and the inside bottom of the primer cup). Old McDonnell-Douglas reports for the military on primers for firearms and pyrotechnics (flares, ejector seat charges, etc.) indicated 0.002" to 0.006" of reconsolidation is best, but a later version changes that to 0.002" to 0.004" based on testing by Naval Ordnance at Indian Head. This all comports well with Dan Hackett's account of the importance of it, though he didn't go there by measuring, rather he just seated primers hard:

"There is some debate about how deeply primers should be seated. I don’t pretend to have all the answers about this, but I have experimented with seating primers to different depths and seeing what happens on the chronograph and target paper, and so far I’ve obtained my best results seating them hard, pushing them in past the point where the anvil can be felt hitting the bottom of the pocket. Doing this, I can almost always get velocity standard deviations of less than 10 feet per second, even with magnum cartridges and long-bodied standards on the ’06 case, and I haven’t been able to accomplish that seating primers to lesser depths."

Dan Hackett
Precision Shooting Reloading Guide, Precision Shooting Inc., Pub. (R.I.P.), Manchester, CT, 1995, p. 271.

I will add that with some powders (particularly spherical) I have found primer flash hole deburring also to be a help, so if you aren't using brass by Lapua, or Norma, or ADG, or one of the other premium brass makers who are careful to avoid leaving burrs, I would go after the burrs.
 

MarkCO

New member
Bart is correct that the shoulder-to-bullet-throat-contact-point on the ogive is what actually determines bullet jump.

ONLY if the should is bumped back precisely the exact same amount each time, which it is not. You can not use a floating datum against a hard datum and get consistency. Sounds good, but it is wrong.

The firing pin drives the case forward so its shoulder stops on the shoulder of the chamber, then the bullet is in its final position.
That does not happen either. And that one does not even sound good.
 

cdoc42

New member
I don't know if this falls into line with the conversation, but I have found when I have a deviation in COL measurement from base to ogive the primer is not seated deeply enough.
A visible clue is if the finished cartridge does not rock when placed upright on the table, but I have also found gently reseating the primer in the finished cartridge that doesn't obviously rock corrects my measurement of COL.
 

44 AMP

Staff
SO, does a difference of 0.008" (approximately the thickness of two sheets of paper) make a difference in how your loads shoot??

Doesn't seem to make any difference in my .22-250.
 

Metal god

New member
Bart is correct that the shoulder-to-bullet-throat-contact-point on the ogive is what actually determines bullet jump. The firing pin drives the case forward so its shoulder stops on the shoulder of the chamber, then the bullet is in its final position. If the cartridge does not have a crimped primer, the primer will drive it forward, too. Someone firing primed empty cases found just firing primers would set his case shoulders back a couple of thousandths, but I forget the details. You can try the experiment yourself. If you can measure the effect, you probably want to seat to allow for it, and you will want to use cases with the same load history.

Correct might be true but may not be right in this context . When using Redding competition shell holders and a solid press . I can get a consistent +/- .001 head to datum measurement when FL sizing my cases and really I get 85% of my cases coming out at the exact same measurement . I'll add that's not 85% of 100 cases , that's 85% 500 to 1000 sized all at the same time . That will give you/us plenty of consistency to avoid inconsistent blow by and anything else that may cause those inconsistencies to include the power of the firing pin striking the primer setting back the shoulder .

I actually tested the ability to set the shoulder back with just a firing pin strike several years ago . It was in a thread on another forum which Bart B was actively participating in . I tried it with 2 different rifles and manufactures . 1) was a 308 Ruger American , 2) was a Savage 308 model 10 . Neither one was able to set the shoulder back using an empty case striking a live primer . All cases had the same number of firings and shoulders were bumped .002-ish .

If I recall correctly based on Bart's input , we concluded that modern or commercial firearms likely lack the power in the firing pin spring to do so . It's believed that the firing pin strike setting back the shoulder of a case is more likely to happen with older military rifles with there heavy firing pin springs creating significantly more force to the primer then commercial rifles built today .

I'll add a question/statement to that as well . I've often read guys shooting competition back in the day liked using lighter brass to allow for more internal case volume . I forget what year but there was some famous Winchester brass that weighed 20 or 30 grains less then what you typically see nowadays . Maybe those thinner case walls and shoulders were easier to set back with a stiff firing pin spring ?? I believe the Win cases I'm talking about were 308 cases and they averaged around 150gr in weight . Compare that to todays LC brass which was what I tested that weigh 185gr+ Maybe that's another reason I was unable to duplicate the shoulder set back ?

Thought I'd throw that out there for digestion
 
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scatterbrain

New member
He's the given. All my brass is pin cleaned and annealed before sizing, sizing is to with in .0005" or redone, primer pockets are reamed for the same depth, primers are set with an adjustable depth gage and measured to be within .0005"(dial indicator), case necks trimmed for length and thickness, concentricity is with in .001". All cases are within 1/2 grain weight of each other. Bullets are sorted and within .0005" in length.
Now, we have established that the ogive is not in the same place on each bullet, and I am working with three different brands.
How do you get the ogive in the same place every time?
 

Metal god

New member
With a seater die that has a seating stem that engaged the bullet as close to the baring surface of the bullet as possible and a comparator with a Sinclair insert to measure and compare each cartridge to the next .
 

scatterbrain

New member
What brand of seater do you use and do you have a separate one for each brand of bullet? The profiles of the bullets are not always the same, within the same box, therefore the point of contact from any one seater die will not be in same location, and the bullet will be set to a different depth.
The goal is to have the base of the bullet set to the same depth each time, knowing that the bullet have been presorted by length.
 
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