Bullet Holes and Rapid Decompression....

[Shane Tuttle]

There was a post in another thread that I feel needs to have the air cleared. My intentions are NOT to make other members look stupid and for me to look cool. It's an issue that strikes a nerve with me. Some people may feel the need to jump in and defend their favorite gun when somebody states a falsehood. Some people may do the same about a certain cartridge...

Mine is the false claim of an airplane will rapidly decompress if it suffers a bullet hole.

Folks, this is just plain nonsense. I'm sure if there's a gunfight at the OK corral in a Boeing 707,everybody's using an AR15, and the end result is the aircraft's skin sufferes hundreds of bullet holes, then I can see an issue. Then I say this: How many home/self defense scenarios end up the same way? I think it's once in a blue moon.

My point is if we were to EVER have our rights restored, are able to carry concealed on an airplane, and we end up defending ourselves using a handgun normally used for CC, rapid decompression is HIGHLY unlikely.

Pressurized aircraft is accomplished by using bleed air off of the engines. Contrary to popular belief, airplanes are NOT a sealed tight vessle. The movie Airport 77 does not reflect what an aircraft's characteristics is under water. A few bullet holes in the aircraft is small potatoes and there's plenty of bleed air available to compensate for the sudden "loss". Also, the structural integrity of the aircraft won't be compromised to the point that the plane is going to rip apart and go down in a ball of flames. This isn't Hollywood.

For disclaimer: This information is NOT to be used in a court of law for supporting evidenc nor do I hold said information as evidence to use against me or others in the court of law.

Thank you for your time to read and I will now step off of my soap box...

 

[noyes]

Yes & no
but there are many ,many more factors to consider. Air speed ,altitude , airframe age...

Hope to here more from you.

 

[Leadbelcher]

Just a side note-
Not sure what is going on, but:
Mythbusters took this one on and showed that a bullet wouldn't decompress an airliner. Interesting stuff.

LB

 

[MeekAndMild]

"Gentlemen, Be Seated!" - Robert A Heinlein - 1948

 

[FlyFish]

I can't vouch for this personally, but I definitely recall reading on an airline forum (one frequented by commercial pilots) some years back that the cabin pressurization system on a 747 can maintain pressure with three entire windows blown out.

 

[noyes]

1 bird bullet to jet engine . Just a matter of where a bullet hits.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5-8_Gnbp2JA



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mthi...NIzaNMnSyIoM&resnum=1&q=jet engine bird inges

 

[Bud Helms]

1 bird bullet to jet engine . Just a matter of where a bullet hits.

Got nothing to do with compartment decompression. Stay on topic.

 

[drail]

I think it is interesting that no one ever brought up the issue of cabin decompression in the pre 9/11 years when most airline pilots were required to carry sidearms. It is IMO the most severely lame excuse to try to keep guns off of an aircraft I have ever heard. Do a search for "outflow valve" on modern aircraft.

 

[Alert]

airlines are not going to let non law enforcement personnel carry concealed weapons as passengers on airplanes, just take my word for it, it's just a lame excuse they used so that they didn't have to explain why they don't want J. Q. Public to ccw, I'd suspect they'd be more worried about a negligent discharge into another passenger than about the rapid decompression myth

 

[Glenn E. Meyer]

1. Hasn't this been tested - even on Mythbusters.

2. When were pilots required to carry sidearms? Some did but if there is a reference for them to be required, I'd like to know. Was it some mail carrier thing?

3. I agree that we probably will never get concealed carry on planes. That's my analysis of the situation.

 

[OnTheFly]

I think it is interesting that no one ever brought up the issue of cabin decompression in the pre 9/11 years when most airline pilots were required to carry sidearms.

Are you talking about WAY prior to 9/11? Like in the 40's?

Fly

 

[Keltyke]

As Mythbusters proved, there is NO chance of explosive decompression from a handgun bullet. However, there IS a good chance of the bullet hitting some vitals like electrical or hydraulic lines.

 

[BillCA]

If we stick to modern commercial aircraft like the 737-400, 747, 757, 767, 777 and new 787, plus Airbus and similar aircraft there isn't much of a problem.

The larger jet engines on the newer airliners, as FlyFish noted, can maintain cabin pressure with missing windows. This does not mean that at the initial loss of a window you will not get a hellva lot of wind nor does it mean your cocktail is not going to jump ship if you're near the window.

At 35,000 feet (especially at this time of year) it's gonna get dreadfully cold in that plane during the descent to 10-12,000 feet. And windy and noisy.

But lets suppose a bullet passes through the interior cabin wall, insulation, misses any spar and exits the skin of the aircraft. So now we have a hole between .355" and .452" in diameter. The cabin pressurization system may not notice, except it's going to need more cabin heat.

But outside... The aluminum skin of most aircraft is very thin. Think of a coke can. Even where it is glued to a fiberglass honeycomb for structural strength, it's thin. Outside, in the slipstream of a 600 mph jetliner the jagged pieces of aluminum may begin to peel. If they peel back an inch or two they may tear off which is okay, the backing panel still has strength. The worst case might be perforating a seam between panels where slipstream air tries to lift up the entire panel.

The newest aircraft are using composite materials in the wings and perhaps the fuselage too. Exactly how these materials will react to structural damage when subject to in-flight dynamics I don't know. Heck the designers might not know either. But I suspect they'll do okay.

We would also suppose that in the event of such a perforation, the flight crew will take note of a gun shot and cabin pressure alerts and take the correct action of declaring an emergency, reducing speed, descending to 10-12,000 feet, setting the transponder and heading to the nearest airfield.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

tuttle, your post was nice and all, but this topic has been done several times. In fact, the whole premise has been experienced in real life back in March of 2008. The pilot's gun went off and shot out through the skin of the aircraft and there was no rapid decompression.
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=286801&highlight=aircraft+decompression

I think it is interesting that no one ever brought up the issue of cabin decompression in the pre 9/11 years when most airline pilots were required to carry sidearms.

I live near DFW airport in a neighborhood that had 6 pilots/co-pilots before 9/11 from a total of 3 major airlines (Delta, American, Continental) and none allowed their pilots to carry, much less required it.

 

[Wildalaska]

I hate flying. I dont want CCW on planes. I don't even like being on a plane.

WildthefoodonjalisprettygoodAlaska TM

 

[44 AMP]

Wasn't it in Goldfinger?

Where the badguy (Oddjob?) got sucked out through the shot out plane window?

Gotta love Hollywood.

IIRC, back in the 80s, a plane over Hawaii lost a 12 FOOT section of cabin roof. And the stewardess who was standing underneath it when it came off. The plane made a safe emergency landing. No one else was "sucked out".
A 12' section seems just a little bit more drastic than a couple of bullet holes, or even and entire window or three.

 

[drail]

Air Transport Pilots used to be required to carry sidearms to protect the US Mail carried in the baggage hold. The airlines fought this for years and two months before 9/11 Federal law was changed and made it forbidden (mainly due to political pressure from the airlines and their insurance carriers.)

 

[Technosavant]

I can't vouch for this personally, but I definitely recall reading on an airline forum (one frequented by commercial pilots) some years back that the cabin pressurization system on a 747 can maintain pressure with three entire windows blown out.

Check out what happened to Aloha Airlines flight 243 (a 737). It became a convertible in-flight yet landed without further incident. The only fatality was a flight attendant who was sucked out (there were others who were unrestrained and remained onboard).

Decompression is a remarkably minor concern for airliners- if the bleed air isn't enough to compensate, the masks come out and the pilots take the airplane lower. More excitement than most people want in their flights, but hardly catastrophic.

 

[OnTheFly]

Air Transport Pilots used to be required to carry sidearms to protect the US Mail carried in the baggage hold. The airlines fought this for years and two months before 9/11 Federal law was changed and made it forbidden (mainly due to political pressure from the airlines and their insurance carriers.)

I'm still trying to wrap my brain around this. I know that prior to 9/11, there was already a program in place for ATPs to carry firearms if trained, etc. Though it was not mandatory. This privilege was revoked two months prior to 9/11. Furthermore, my father was a pilot for Pan American until he retired around 1991. Though he was flying international flights, I think that the airlines were utilized to carry US mail domestically and internationally. If so, he was never required to carry a firearm.

Fly

 

[Shane Tuttle]

Yes & no
but there are many ,many more factors to consider. Air speed ,altitude , airframe age...
Hope to here more from you.

1. On of my points of argument mirrors what Bud Helms has stated about your videos.

2. It doesn't matter what airspeed and altitude the aircraft is flying. Take it to max altitude and max rated airspeed of any airliner and it will not matter. The structural design of the aircraft is made to handle loads well beyond its normal operating range.

3. Aircraft inspections are performed on a routine basis. The airframe isn't inspected when they have a problem, it's inspected in a regular interval whether it's been flying squawk free or not.

Mythbusters took this one on and showed that a bullet wouldn't decompress an airliner. Interesting stuff.

They did. However, a couple of items of thought:

1. I wasn't relying on everyone to watch Mythbusters. I figured some people don't care for that show.

2. Even if I relied on someone watching Mythbusters, they have been known to be wrong in their past experiments.

Do a search for "outflow valve" on modern aircraft.

Actually, there's an outflow AND safety valve...two massive valves that regulate cabin pressure.

airlines are not going to let non law enforcement personnel carry concealed weapons as passengers on airplanes, just take my word for it, it's just a lame excuse they used so that they didn't have to explain why they don't want J. Q. Public to ccw, I'd suspect they'd be more worried about a negligent discharge into another passenger than about the rapid decompression myth

I agree that we probably will never get concealed carry on planes. That's my analysis of the situation.

Maybe not. But, there was a time when "shall" or even "may" issue was an impossibility to most. Not quite apples to apples, but I'm an eternal optomist on this one...

tuttle, your post was nice and all, but this topic has been done several times.

Actually, given the fact my search skills stink, I didn't have very much luck on seeing this topic of discussion as you may have. It's not like it's been hashed over like a 9mm vs. .45 thread...