Browning Hi Power Question and Mod Ideas

[TunnelRat]

Hi all,
All the talk about Hi Powers in the recent Tisas thread finally motivated me to buy another Hi Power (I owned one many years ago as one of my first semiautos). I picked up a surplus MkIII being sold by Mach 1 Arsenal on GunBroker and was lucky enough to not have my auction bid up overly high. The sample I got appears to have been made in 1995 and while used doesn't appear abused.

One thing I noticed was that while the full serial number is on both the barrel and frame, on the slide are only the last 5 digits of the serial number (in a larger font, but stamped and not with an electronic pencil). The pictures I browsed on Google showed US commercial models with no serial number on the slide and European models with the full triple serial numbers. I wasn't sure if this meant the slide had been replaced or something.

Lastly, I'm planning on this being a sort of project gun. I did the same with a few CZs in the past and really enjoyed the process. I may get it refinished, but I was considering a safety replacement for something a bit more extended and maybe any other parts, polishing, or mods folks recommend. I see parts available from both Cylinder and Slide and BHP Spring Solutions. Yes I will shoot the pistol first, but working on the CZs gave me an appreciation for how they functioned and I'd like to do the same here.

Thanks,
TR

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk

 

[rock185]

TR, I've owned a few MKIIIs. Mine were only numbered on the frame and barrel. Guns destined for other countries may have the slides serialized according to their laws, and/or what volume purchasers may require.

In any case, the MKIIIs are a high point in FN production IMHO for guns that are actually going to be used, as opposed to just admired/collected,etc. My current MKIII is a 1989 gun that I've owned for several years, and probably the last HP I'd want to sell or trade. Your 1995 gun would have the cast frame, widely believed to be more robust than the earlier forged frame guns. As to custom work, the sky's the limit. Since the MKIIIs have more usable sights and thumb safeties, I've left most I owned stock, or nearly so. I have used Heinie or Novak sights on a couple. I have Spegel grips on my MKIII, but otherwise it is stock. Reliability wise, I've never had to do anything to any of the MKIIIs I've owned. They all just worked. Enjoy yours.

 

[Sharkbite]

Hi-powers are just darn sexy pistols. With the mag disconnect taken out a pretty nice trigger is possible. As to reliability, they were good enough for the SAS in the late 70’s early 80’s.

Sign me up

 

[WVsig]

Hi all,
All the talk about Hi Powers in the recent Tisas thread finally motivated me to buy another Hi Power (I owned one many years ago as one of my first semiautos). I picked up a surplus MkIII being sold by Mach 1 Arsenal on GunBroker and was lucky enough to not have my auction bid up overly high. The sample I got appears to have been made in 1995 and while used doesn't appear abused.

One thing I noticed was that while the full serial number is on both the barrel and frame, on the slide are only the last 5 digits of the serial number (in a larger font, but stamped and not with an electronic pencil). The pictures I browsed on Google showed US commercial models with no serial number on the slide and European models with the full triple serial numbers. I wasn't sure if this meant the slide had been replaced or something.

Lastly, I'm planning on this being a sort of project gun. I did the same with a few CZs in the past and really enjoyed the process. I may get it refinished, but I was considering a safety replacement for something a bit more extended and maybe any other parts, polishing, or mods folks recommend. I see parts available from both Cylinder and Slide and BHP Spring Solutions. Yes I will shoot the pistol first, but working on the CZs gave me an appreciation for how they functioned and I'd like to do the same here.

Thanks,
TR

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk

The 5 digits of the serial number were put on the gun by an Israeli armorer. It is a common practice. It might be a forced match with a replacement slide but it is just as likely to be the original barrel. I imagine that your BHP looks like this. IIRC they are inventory or rack #s to keep matched parts together on the same gun.

I would use C&S parts over the BHP Springs parts. C&S has been in the BHP game for a long time. I like their strong side only safeties. I do not like their Ambi safety. The extended or wide are good choices. I have used both.

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1030413867/cylinder-and-slide-extended-safety-browning-hi-power

or

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1...wide-target-extended-safety-browning-hi-power

I like BHPs tools and the springs are solid. Their ambi safety looks OK but I personally would stick with the FN/Browning factory part. For replacement triggers I like the C&S wide and the Garthwaite.

I also like the C&S fire controls. Hammer, sear and spring sets. Installing these parts along with a better trigger and wide or extended safety make the BHP very shootable. Good luck. The surplus BHPs at Mach 1 have been selling for very fair prices for todays market. IMHO

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

The Hi-Powers with the straight barrel ramps are amazingly reliable. They won’t hold up to extended shooting like more modern pistols unfortunately, though I find them a lot more pleasant to shoot.

Best custom trigger I ever had was Don Williams, although the mainspring did need a bit of tweaking after the initial work for reliability. I like to use the C&S parts also, particularly their commander hammer.

I am not a fan of factory sights and either replace them or remove the white inserts. I don’t know why Browning/FN decided to bring the inserts to the top of the sight. I don’t find that very helpful and I’ve never seen anyone else use it.

I like to step up the recoil spring to an 18.5lb spring.

Known issues: FN changed the slide stop around 2000. If you shoot it enough, the old one will crack. A 1995 is probably a cast frame; but there are forged frame 1995’s out there.

 

[T. O'Heir]

Anything about US commercial models will not apply to any 'surplus' BHP. Neither does a CZ really. CZ's are not copies. They're only sort of based on the BHP. Still doesn't hurt having worked on one if you're going to fiddle with a BHP.
The only modification a really BHP needs is that daft mag safety be taken out. And depending on what sights are on it, change the sights. It really shouldn't need anything else.
If the thing is a surplus pistol, weapons techs everywhere do not care about matching parts, S/N's or any of that kind of stuff. The idea is to get the thing back in service as fast as possible. I'd have to look, but I don't think my Inglis has a S/N on the slide. Just the frame and barrel. The slide doesn't matter as you'd fit another barrel, with or without a S/N, to it. And only the frame matters where registration applies.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

Anything about US commercial models will not apply to any 'surplus' BHP. Neither does a CZ really. CZ's are not copies. They're only sort of based on the BHP.

Actually, the CZ is not even "sort of based" on the BHP.

The BHP and CZ have a "sort of" similar general appearance, but almost nothing else about them is similar. In part, that's because the BHP is a SAO design, while the CZ is DA/SA design that can start from cocked & locked. (The CZ is a more-complicated mechanism.)

About the only thing shared by the two guns is that they both use the Browning Short Recoil Locked Breech design, but, then, so do about 90% of all center-fire semi-autos.

 

[TunnelRat]

Thanks for all the info so far! I'm also assuming the pistol is an Israeli trade, though there are no Stars of David anywhere on it. The bottom of the frame has the ridges outside the magwell that marks it as a cast frame, as noted by the highpowersandhandguns website. I don't think the asking prices on the GunBroker auctions are unreasonable at all, it's just some folks obviously got themselves in bidding wars. A few extremely nice ones sold for just short of $700. The final price on mine was $605. Also, I'm aware that the Hi Power and CZ only have limited similarities. My point in bringing it up was simply I had used CZs in the past as project guns, and am hoping to do the same here.

Yea I know the pistol won't need the additional parts, I just enjoy playing around with other options. I did remove the magazine disconnect and the pistol has a light takeup to a 6 lb. break currently. For right now the only parts I'm really considering are:
RDIH Extended Slide Stop - this is more as a cheap replacement to what is on mine, as the one of mine has some mild corrosion (I cleaned it with oil and a brass brush and touched it up with a bluing pen, but BH Spring Solutions is selling them for $33 and I figured what the heck)
Extended Safety - I have stubby fingers and I'm just curious how it might help
New Grips - it has a worn set of wood ones on there now (on the side towards the frame they're almost a red color, which I'm assuming was the original color, like a pale colonial red, and on the outside they're partly black whether by paint or age) and I was thinking of trying some slimmer ones. Probably going to try some LOK grips for now as they're relatively affordable.
Sights - the MkIII has decent sights but these are a bit squashed on the rear corners
Refinish - at some point I might refinish it. The enamel like coating is in decent shape with wear marks on the high points. I might do a Robar Roguard or Poly-T2 on the outside, and then an NP3+ on internal parts. That would be down the line.

 

[jonnyc]

"They won’t hold up to extended shooting like more modern pistols unfortunately,"

Can't disagree with you more. I currently have 7 HPs and have had/used more, including service in the IDF and Border Guards. In thousands of rounds through HPs, I've had one broken slide stop. That's it. I've fired everything from TulAmmo to Egyptian surplus, and a good amount of Israeli "Uzi" ammo, subsonic to +P.

 

[Ibmikey]

I have quite a few HP’s and shoot them often, from pre war to nineties made Captain. The only spare parts I have stocked is a couple of firing pins and an internal extractor, to date I have broken nothing in any of the pistols.
I also acquired a new ( Israeli trade so not anywhere near new) FEG Hi Power just to add one to the “collection”. The FEG had been rode hard on the original blue so after extensive cleaning I sent it to have Metalife finish applied. Altamont makes great checkered thin panels for the HP in laminated woods including rosewood and at a reasonable price. Altamont currently makes Grips for S&W so you can see the quality at your local gun shop.

 

[WVsig]

Anything about US commercial models will not apply to any 'surplus' BHP. Neither does a CZ really. CZ's are not copies. They're only sort of based on the BHP. Still doesn't hurt having worked on one if you're going to fiddle with a BHP.
The only modification a really BHP needs is that daft mag safety be taken out. And depending on what sights are on it, change the sights. It really shouldn't need anything else.
If the thing is a surplus pistol, weapons techs everywhere do not care about matching parts, S/N's or any of that kind of stuff. The idea is to get the thing back in service as fast as possible. I'd have to look, but I don't think my Inglis has a S/N on the slide. Just the frame and barrel. The slide doesn't matter as you'd fit another barrel, with or without a S/N, to it. And only the frame matters where registration applies.

This would be somewhat correct. The Israeli Police forces which is where these guns with the stamped/etchd 5 digit serial numbers originated from certainly build mix masters but they also etched matching numbers on to parts that did not have serial numbers. They did this for a reason. I can only assume in order to keep particular parts with the same gun.

If you look at enough Israeli surplus BHPs you will see these etched serial numbers on frames, slides and barrels. Your Inglis has no bearing on the discussion. It it a BHP of a completely different era used in a completely different conflict by a completely different fighting force. All poodles are dogs not all dogs are poodles.

As to what a BHP needs or does not need I will defer to what Mr. Ted Yost told me when I asked him was it worth it to replace a FN factory barrel with a KKM match barrel. He said, "No. A Browning Hi Power only needs 3 things to truly be improved. A good trigger job, good sights and a good safety."

IMHO he is 100% correct. For the most part the BHP does not ship these 3 features. Occasionally you will get one with a nice clean but heavy trigger that can be made "perfect" with a few spring changes and removal of the magazine disconnect but most of the time a little more tweaking is needed.

I am not huge fan of any of the factory BHPs. I can use them. They work but they are not in anyway optimal for me YMMV. I have owned and shot everything from half moon Pre Ts, Ts, & Cs, Tangets, beer can adjustables, MKIIs, MKIIIs etc... if I am customizing a gun they sights always get replaced.

As far as the CZ being based on the BHP I think other members covered that myth.

 

[WVsig]

Thanks for all the info so far! I'm also assuming the pistol is an Israeli trade, though there are no Stars of David anywhere on it. The bottom of the frame has the ridges outside the magwell that marks it as a cast frame, as noted by the highpowersandhandguns website. I don't think the asking prices on the GunBroker auctions are unreasonable at all, it's just some folks obviously got themselves in bidding wars. A few extremely nice ones sold for just short of $700. The final price on mine was $605. Also, I'm aware that the Hi Power and CZ only have limited similarities. My point in bringing it up was simply I had used CZs in the past as project guns, and am hoping to do the same here.

Good looking surplus gun at a fair price. Not all the Israeli police guns got the Star of David stamped onto them. Only some of the Police departments did it IIRC.

Yea I know the pistol won't need the additional parts, I just enjoy playing around with other options. I did remove the magazine disconnect and the pistol has a light takeup to a 6 lb. break currently. For right now the only parts I'm really considering are:
RDIH Extended Slide Stop - this is more as a cheap replacement to what is on mine, as the one of mine has some mild corrosion (I cleaned it with oil and a brass brush and touched it up with a bluing pen, but BH Spring Solutions is selling them for $33 and I figured what the heck)
Extended Safety - I have stubby fingers and I'm just curious how it might help

The RDIH slide stop is a love it or hate is part but for $33 it is worth a shot. I personally find it gets in the way more than it helps but I am more of an offhand slide release kind of guy. Do not throw the original away. Even in the condition it is in it is worth $50 +/- to someone. I personally would just keep it in the parts bin. If you are going to order that part I would look at getting their Third Hand Tool if you are going to remove the trigger, hammer and sear at anytime. You will thank me for the recommendation later.

https://bhspringsolutions.com/11-third-hand-tool.html

I would also consider getting one of their spring sets or at least a recoil spring and a heavier trigger return spring. Sometimes when you remove the mag disconnect the trigger reset becomes vague. The heavier spring helps correct that.

Here is a coupon code for 10% off. BHVet10

New Grips - it has a worn set of wood ones on there now (on the side towards the frame they're almost a red color, which I'm assuming was the original color, like a pale colonial red, and on the outside they're partly black whether by paint or age) and I was thinking of trying some slimmer ones. Probably going to try some LOK grips for now as they're relatively affordable.
Sights - the MkIII has decent sights but these are a bit squashed on the rear corners
Refinish - at some point I might refinish it. The enamel like coating is in decent shape with wear marks on the high points. I might do a Robar Roguard or Poly-T2 on the outside, and then an NP3+ on internal parts. That would be down the line.

The original grips were French walnut. The red pain on the inside is some sort of protective finish. The external color was sort of a blond.

If you are looking for thin grips the Navidrex Thin Black Micarta are the thinnest you will find. Trust me I have smaller hands and have tried them all.

https://www.brownells.com/handgun-p...ombat-grips-prod9563.aspx?avs|Make_3=Browning

If you are sticking with the factory sight dovetails if you wait a few months I can get you a set of factory sights off my MKIII which is being customized. The other option is to sent the slide to Novak and they will mill the slide and install their sights and have the gun back to you within 10 days. Other sight options will cost more and take longer depending on who you have do the work.

As to refinishing the gun the sky is the limit. NP3 and Rogard products look great on a BHP. I did this combo on an Alloy BHP.

Good luck enjoy the journey.

 

[khegglie]

WVsig congratulations on a beautiful refinish on that High Power!

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

They won’t hold up to extended shooting like more modern pistols unfortunately,"

Can't disagree with you more. I currently have 7 HPs and have had/used more, including service in the IDF and Border Guards. In thousands of rounds through HPs, I've had one broken slide stop. That's it. I've fired everything from TulAmmo to Egyptian surplus, and a good amount of Israeli "Uzi" ammo, subsonic to +P.

My high round count Hi-Power is just shy of 40,000 rounds with a couple of thousand +P through it. . My experience has been that the Hi-Power just isn’t as tough as modern pistols. I first started replacing parts on that one (which I bought factory new) at 13,106 rounds. I replaced various parts on it to about 22,000 rounds, then I had a good run with minimal issues to about 35,000 and now we are back in a maintenance period.

Now, that is, of course, a single data point. And my remaining Hi-Powers, which all have several thousand rounds through them, have considerably lower round counts but have still needed parts replaced (though they started out as surplus).

The guy I shoot with has a Glock 34 that is having some of the same issues; he’s above six figures on that pistol. All my own Glocks are now well past 13k now and chugging along unchanged. I’ve seen some M&P 1.0s showing similar durability.

I love Hi-Powers. They are my favorite pistol, and for their time and well after it, they were the best fighting pistol available in my opinion. But those days are in the past. I can get a 9mm STI the same size as a Hi-Power but with better accuracy and a 1911 trigger for what it costs to get a custom Hi-Power. Or I can shell out $600 for a stock Glock, retrain myself on the trigger and have a serviceable weapon that can keep up with my training schedule, so I don’t need 1 pistol to carry, 1 pistol to train, and a third pistol as spare whenever one of the other two is broken.

If a Hi-Power was as durable as a modern pistol, I’d still be shooting one - because I love how they shoot. Rube Goldberg trigger and all.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

The bottom of the frame has the ridges outside the magwell that marks it as a cast frame, as noted by the highpowersandhandguns website.

That’s a quick and 98% accurate way to tell cast frame from forged frame; but the only 100% method is to look inside the gripframe for the cast mark (plus the inside isn’t polished on cast frames so it looks noticeably rougher). From 1991-1996 or so, you’ll see cast frames with smooth butts and forged frames with ridges occasionally. I’m not sure why; but FN made them side by side for awhile.

In my experience, the cast frames do hold up better to heavier firing schedules. The one I linked to above is a 1995 cast frame.

He said, "No. A Browning Hi Power only needs 3 things to truly be improved. A good trigger job, good sights and a good safety."

I agree completely - though if it is an older humped ramp Hi-Power, it needs the barrel hump fixed before it will feed modern JHP reliably.

 

[bn12gg]

90's Capitain here -- poured thousands of rounds thru it -- only an occasional stove pipe. She is a sweet heart.

.02. David.

 

[goste]

Just my opinion, but the Browning Factory Ambi. safety, is the best one available. I had the C&S Ambi. , and their strong side Safety, and didn't like them.

Could have lived with the Non Ambi. C&S, but their Ambi. was horrible

 

[jonfon10]

I will be look over this thread a lot. I also have one of the Hi-Power Mach 1 had. I received it as a gift and haven't looked back. I put 1200 rounds through it in the mater of 3 days. I love my gun but agree that it needs refinished, a new safety, trigger job/mag disconnect taken out, and new sights. I have been trying to get the meprolight sights for the gun because that is what people have recommended to me but they seem to be hard to find at this time. For those of you who have been looking at the Nighthawk version of the HP. I talked to them at a show recently and they are no longer producing them . If you haven't had a chance to hold or fire one I would highly recommend it.

 

[JDBerg]

For those of you who have been looking at the Nighthawk version of the HP. I talked to them at a show recently and they are no longer producing them . If you haven't had a chance to hold or fire one I would highly recommend it.

An LGS on the other side of Denver had 2 very slightly used Nighthawk HP’s. I can’t say I was crazy about the stippling on the top of the slide and on the frontstrap, but these were otherwise very nicely crafted guns. Both sold relatively quickly.

 

[tipoc]

Go over here and look around some. Mr. Camp has passed on but this is still one of the best gun sites on the web.

http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/


tipoc