British M1 garand

[burrhead]

A lady friend of my wife's, who lives a couple of hundred miles away but has a house locally, is heading this way for the 4th. She told my wife she is bringing several guns to sell. Neither she nor my wife know anything about guns but it seems she MAY have a British marked M1. I'm getting a pre-sale look at what she has. Don't know anything about the condition but assuming it's good or better, what's a ballpark value on a British M1? Anything else to look for?

I know this is an almost impossible question but it's all the info I have at the moment. Btw, there also MAY be a Lugar; I'm excited.

 

[44 AMP]

Can't help with the M1, sorry, no idea what special markings make it worth.

The Luger, on the other hand, value depends on two main things, first, which specific variation of Luger it is (the markings are very important, all of them) and the condition of the pistol.

Mechanical condition, and condition of the finish, completeness with all the numbered parts matching and original make a big difference in the market value.

A rare variant, even with a poor finish and mis matched numbers MIGHT be worth more than a more common version in better condition. Collectors are odd folk. and what they're willing to pay depends on what, specifically, they are looking for. Original accessories, holster, tool, spare magazine (very rare to have the correct numbered magazine for some variants), capture papers (if applicable), those things will add considerably to the collector value if present.

AS with any thing, good clear pictures (including all markings) go a long way in helping to identify the specific variation. If pics are not possible, a clear accurate description of the markings is needed. many of the possible markings will be stylized eagles, some may only be partially struck, and may only look like a few lines.

Rare Lugers are worth quite a bit, and people have faked them or tried to. The difference between a $1000 Luger and a $10,000 Luger could be just the markings on them.

 

[Nodak1858]

For the Garand could be a couple thousand and higher, depends on condition. Seen some sell for 4k and higher. Did they say why they thought it was a lend lease?

 

[4V50 Gary]

Look for the British proof marks and that broad arrow.

 

[doofus47]

buy the Luger if she has one.
I've seen some that were jam-o-matics, but they price is only going to go up.

 

[burrhead]

Did they say why they thought it was a lend lease?

Not all M1s with British proofs are lend lease although that's certainly my hope. Any of the allie's rifles that came back to the US via Britain will have English proofs, even if they originated somewhere else. I was sent this link on another forum and learned a lot.

https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2016/6/30/garands-in-the-kings-service/

The lady who owns it is probably late 50s/60 years old and all these guns came from her from her father. I suppose either he told her at some time it was British or someone saw the proofs and told her that. She knows nothing about firearms. I haven't spoken to her, only my wife who also doesn't know much about guns. I waiting to see what she has; it could be trash or treasure.

 

[T. O'Heir]

Most of the M1 Rifles sent to the Brits sat in a warehouse for a few years then were sent back as is(were?). They were only used by a few RAF Regm't troopies guarding air field used by the USAF. Mostly post war while serving in the BAOR. Some RM Commando's in Korea used American kit but that was not Lend/Lease stuff.
A Lend/Lease rifle should have a painted red stripe on the forestock or the remains of one. It usually gets removed by some owner.
The S/N and date of the receiver will be the key. The S/N from 300,000 and 700,000 on a 1941 or '42 receiver.
Oh and above all else, buy the rifle, not the story. Especially if she says her pop brought the thing back from the war. The troopies were not allowed to keep their issue kit under any circumstances.

 

[aarondhgraham]

I'm a bit hesitant to ask,,,

I'm a bit hesitant to ask,,,
She's not bringing them across state line, is she?

Aarond

.

 

[burrhead]

She's not bringing them across state line, is she?

Nope, Penwell to Terlingua.

 

[Nodak1858]

If it is a true lend lease, it should have a lot of early parts, and possibly the red band on the front of the stock. If it checks out you better dig out the wallet. They are not something you see everyday to say the least.

 

[James K]

First, there were no British-made M1 rifles. The US sent several thousand to the British prior to Lend-Lease but they were not made in Britain or marked (at the time) any differently from US rifles of the same vintage, except for the red band marking around the front of the stock, right behind the sling swivel to indicate a non-standard (not .303) caliber. Few were ever issued or used in combat, though reportedly some were used in the Dieppe raid.

When they were taken from depot storage in the 1950's, prior to being sold in the US and elsewhere, they were proved with the standard British proof marks of that period, not those of 1940.

Since those rifles mostly spent the war in storage, they were never upgraded as were the ones in US service, so they have the old style handguards and other parts, like single slot gas cylinder lock screws without the valve.

If you are fortunate enough to find one that has not been upgraded by an owner, I strongly recommend keeping it that way.

Jim

 

[Orlando]

Two lend lease garands just sold on the CMP forum, $1850 and $1800

 

[Kevin Rohrer]

She's not bringing them across state line, is she?

Who cares?

 

[COSteve]

Buy the Luger if she has one.
I've seen some that were jam-o-matics, but they price is only going to go up.

Most jam-o-matic Lugers are just being fired with the wrong 9mm ammo. The Luger was designed to use 9mm+P level ammo and without it, many will fail to cycle correctly.

My pristine 1940, s/n matching, correct Nazi marked, Model 42 I got some 40 years ago chokes on std 9mm but runs like a top on the +P ammo it was designed for. However, as it's currently worth well north of $4K with it's matching s/n mag and real holster, I don't shoot it but just a couple rds every couple years just to say I did.

 

[44 AMP]

Most jam-o-matic Lugers are just being fired with the wrong 9mm ammo. The Luger was designed to use 9mm+P level ammo and without it, many will fail to cycle correctly.

While its probably fair to say that if a Luger jams its because its being fired with the "wrong" ammo, the question is, what is the right ammo, and does the gun need work (and some DO) in order to reliably run on it.

The Luger was NOT designed to run on 9mm +p ammo. Period.

First off, the Luger was the first pistol made for the 9mm Parabellum. There was no such thing as 9mm +P in 1902, and the standards for the original ammo are well documented. (can't have a +p before you have a standard to add pressure to! )

Georg Luger designed the 9mm Parabellum to fire a 124gr bullet at 1050fps from a 4" (100mm) barrel. This is the load adopted by the German Navy in 1906 (though the pistol chosen had a 6" barrel) and adopted by the German Army in 1908 (the 4" standard. and a bit later the 8" "Artillery" model).

Sometime before WW I, the load was changed to a 115gr bullet at 1150fps. This was the standard load used during both world wars.

That load level is listed in countless places, 115gr @1150fps (4' bbl). This is also the velocity listed for US 9mm Luger (before the +p "revolution")

Lugers have a reputation for being balky with US "standard" 9mm ammo. Personally, I think US 9mm Luger ammo from the "old days" was listed at a higher velocity than the ammo often delivered, and that's why so many Lugers became "jam-o-matics. If a Luger won't run on what the German Army fed them, it needs tuning.

Sadly, there is almost no one left who knows how, from personal experience, and so many Lugers are in the very valuable collector range that having them worked on so they will function reliably could detract from their value.

I would strongly advise AGAINST using any MODERN 9mm+p in a valuable Luger. The toggle system used is very efficient, and should handle a slight increase in pressure, BUT not every part is as robust as the toggle lock, and we are talking about 75 year old (or more) steel and a single broken (numbered) part turns a $4k gun into a $2k gun (or less).

If you're willing to risk that kind of value loss, by all means, go ahead, its your gun. I don't run +P in my mismatched 1936 "shooter", but then it runs on standard 115gr & 124gr ball, provided the magazines are good. Lots of times, a balky Luger is a magazine problem, not an action problem. Not always, but often enough that its the first place to check if you have issues.

 

[Ibmikey]

Kevin, When I travel to Texas each year I have at least a dozen rifles and probably the same number of pistols in the vehicle, I am a threat to no one and do not stop at each state line to confess any perceived sins. Texans like me, I kill lots of their invasive hogs.
Oops back on topic: Some of the hogs fall to my Garand.

 

[44 AMP]

She's not bringing them across state line, is she?

Who cares?

The ATF might.

Selling guns (especially handguns) across state lines IS one of the things they usually care about. There is a legal process, and it involves and FFL dealer. NOT FOLLOWING THE LEGAL PROCESS IS A CRIMINAL OFFENSE!!!

You can take all the guns you want across state lines to USE (assuming they are legal in the state you are taking them into), but taking them across state lines to SELL is a different matter.

 

[RickB]

Most jam-o-matic Lugers are just being fired with the wrong 9mm ammo. The Luger was designed to use 9mm+P level ammo and without it, many will fail to cycle correctly.

While its probably fair to say that if a Luger jams its because its being fired with the "wrong" ammo, the question is, what is the right ammo, and does the gun need work (and some DO) in order to reliably run on it.

On one of the Luger forums, someone reproduced a page from a manual, or catalog, or something, showing six or eight different action springs, and which spring, based on chambering, barrel length, etc., the gun should have.
For years, Wolff made only one Luger spring, they now have three, and I think the problem is a lot of oversprung Lugers.
I have a .30 Luger, handload ammo MUCH weaker than any factory 9mm round, and it runs great. I bought a Wolff spring kit, but didn't install the action spring, as I suspected it would be too stiff.