Brass issue or operator error?

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happymachinist

New member
So I took my first stab at reloading some 40S&W this morning. (My first stab at reloading anything). 180gr Berry's bullets with 6.3gr of Longshot and CCI small pistol primers.

I loaded up 10 rounds total, 5 Herters and 5 Remington brass. The Remingtons came out ok, but the Herters developed a slight bulge on one side where the bullet was pressed in almost like it wasn't pressed in straight. The OD of the case grew .003-.004. Measuring below where the bullet is seated about .420....over the bullet .423-.424.

The expanding die felt tighter in the Herters so I'm guessing that would be part of it, as best I can tell with my calipers the case walls are a touch thicker compared to the Remington brass. I'm tempted to run to work and get a mic for a more accurate measurement.

I loaded up 10 more "dumby" rounds without primers or powder again 5 Remington and 5 Herters. This time I didn't screw the expanding die out as much to give more of a flare thinking this would help start the bullet a little straighter. Results were the same.

So obviously my first question is what can I do to prevent this?

Second, is it safe to fire the rounds? Or do I need to be concerned with pressures and just disassemble the rounds in question. They chamber in my Browning Hi Power just fine but I dont want to risk damage to myself or my gun.

Here's a picture kinda hard to see it but may be of use.
gasene4a.jpg
 
B

Brian Pfleuger

Moderator Emeritus
Neither.

Normal and expected.

Being more on one side than another probably means the bullet didn't get started quite straight but you'll get that ring with a lot of handgun cartridges.
 
R

RaySendero

New member
Sizing the 40 S&W

happymachinist wrote: Brass issue or operator error?

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but the Herters developed a slight bulge on one side where the bullet was pressed in almost like it wasn't pressed in straight. The OD of the case grew .003-.004. Measuring below where the bullet is seated about .420"....over the bullet .423-.424". .....
Click to expand...



hm,

Back off your sizing die just a little.
You are sizing the cases to 0.420" OD.
Back it off to size the cases to 0.423".

see:

http://stevespages.com/jpg/cd40smithandwesson.jpg
 
H

happymachinist

New member
Awesome. The factory cartridges I measured came in at .420-.421 I assumed the specs in my book were max numbers. (They were the same as what you've listed) I suppose the factory ammo is made towards the minimum so it feeds more reliably. I'll give it a shot.

Thanks again.
 
L

LE-28

New member
Typically you want to see that ring all the way around the bullet. The .002-.003"press fit is what holds the bullet in place. Without it your bullets will set back in the case from recoil and that raises pressure. A taper crimp is use to just straighten out the flaring.

By turning down your flaring die you are also adding to the neck resizing and that will also take care of a little of the extra tightness your seeing in your cases.

If anything I would try a little more flare to help get them set in straighter. Berry's and other plated bullet companies make their plated bullets to lead bullet diameters. They are usually .001"or so over caliber, 357 bullets will mic at .358 just like lead, 9mm.355"will mic at .356".

It usually takes a little more flare to get them to seat straight while setting them in by hand. Adjust your taper crimp die to just take the flare out and straighten the case out and you should be just fine.
Just make sure when your done you see that line all the way around the base of the bullet and if you don't, you neck sized it to much.
 
H

happymachinist

New member
I did run my uncharged testers through the factory crimp die. It was a little tight and I wasn't sure if it was the right thing to do and it did smooth them right up.
 
B

Brian Pfleuger

Moderator Emeritus
I must say, I've never heard of "backing off your sizing die" for straight-walled, semi-auto handgun rounds. All that's going to do is not size the bottom of the case.
 
2

243winxb

New member
Back off your sizing die just a little.
You are sizing the cases to 0.420" OD.
Back it off to size the cases to 0.423".
Click to expand...
I do not agree. A carbide ring can not be adjusted this way. I would check the diameter of the expander. About .002" smaller than bullet diameter is about right. Try seating the bullets straighter.
 
H

happymachinist

New member
I also don't understand how backing off the die would make the case come out larger in diameter with a "straight" wall case. I'm seating the bullets as straight as I can. I'd like to think I have the necessary finesse to do so. I think what bothers me the most is the Remington cases dont have the same issues. More measuring is most definitely required. And I suppose practice makes perfect ;)
 
B

Brian Pfleuger

Moderator Emeritus
happymachinist said:
I also don't understand how backing off the die would make the case come out larger in diameter with a "straight" wall case. I'm seating the bullets as straight as I can. I'd like to think I have the necessary finesse to do so. I think what bothers me the most is the Remington cases dont have the same issues. More measuring is most definitely required. And I suppose practice makes perfect ;)
Click to expand...


Measure the side wall thickness. If the outer dimensions are the same, and they should be VERY close, a thinner wall means a larger ID, which means less (noticeable) bulge from the bullet.

In any case, every 10mm cartridge I've ever loaded looks like that. It's normal and expected and not worthy of another moments thought.
 
L

LE-28

New member
a thinner wall means a larger ID, which means less (noticeable) bulge from the bullet.
Click to expand...

Ok, I don't understand that statement. I just had a molar split and had it pulled so maybe it's the codeine affecting me.

Brian, How can the Id of the bullet be larger with thinner brass? I would think the resizing die would make them all the same on the inside and the thicker brass would have a larger OD. Is it because thinner brass has less spring back or something like that?

Please explain, I'm not thinking real clear at this point.
 
B

Brian Pfleuger

Moderator Emeritus
The die sizes from the outside. It doesn't touch the inside. If the outside is a constant .420 (or whatever) but some sidewalls are thicker than others then the ID will be different. Not the bullet, the brass. Then, when you seat the bullet the cartridge with thicker brass will have a larger OD, a more noticeable bulge.

The thick brass will have a larger OD with a bullet seated but all cases will have the same OD below the bullet. Thicker brass, more noticeable bulge.
 
2

243winxb

New member
Bulge at base of seated bullet.

As said in post #2. Normal if the ring is all around. If bulged on only 1 side, it may or may not chamber. Depends on the size of the bulge.
 
R

RaySendero

New member
Well...That's why I was asking.

The pic in #1 - I see a stress ring below the bullet. But if using a carbide ring die, would expect to see another near the base - Maybe just my eyes. So was wondering what the cases miced before and after sizing.
 
S

snuffy

New member
I want to have a long talk with anyone that thinks they can set a bullet on a case mouth precisely. Visually, it MAY look straighter, but it is not. What seats bullets straight is the seating die.

As the seating stem, also called the nose punch encounters the bullet, it straightens the bullet and aligns it with the brass. If there's some slop in the inside diameter of the die, the bullet will not be seated straight. Oh yes, there HAS to be some slop or clearance, otherwise the die would drag on the case. IF the nose punch does NOT fit the profile of the bullet exactly, it may start the bullet off-center. Then, if the die does not support the case, it will be seated crooked.

As Peetza killer, (Brian), has said, the appearance of the bulge is normal. Even though the 40 S&W case is said to be a "straight" handgun case, it DOES have some taper from the base to the mouth. The carbide ring then sizes the entire case to the needed mouth diameter to hold the bullet,(bullet pull or case neck tension). This results in the bullet expanding the case making the case look like a snake that swallowed an egg.

Remington brass has had a reputation for being the thinnest brass across the spectrum of main line brass makers. I too have seen this, sometimes a good thing, sometimes not.

Handguns are short range weapons. If you're shooting a 40 ess and double you, at over 25 yards, THEN you might need to worry about getting the bullet seated straight.

Plated bullets like the berry's are pretty soft and conform to the bore as soon as they enter the throat. The firestorm of hot high pressure gasses behind the bullet make it fit,(obturates), and will be plenty accurate for the from you to the bad-guy (10 feet and under), or from you to the cardboard silly wet.
 
H

happymachinist

New member
Ok, I went to work this morning and got a few mics and small hole gages and I've done a little measuring. When sized my cases are coming out around .420for both the Remington and Herters. (All cases once fired from the same pistol) Prior to sizing the case mouth mics about .4250 and towards the base about .4275

What should the FL resize diameter be? Is .420 too small? I small hole gaged the carbide ring on my die and it measures .4167 so I'm getting a spring back of about .0033

It seems the wall thickness of the Remington cases is .0107 where as the Herters have a wall thickness of .0117 on average. That I suppose Is the majority of where the bulge is coming from in the Herters. It works out to .002 press with the Remington and .004 press in the Herters. The Berry's measure .4006-.4007

I will try putting a slightly larger flare to aid in aligning the bullet better. I might also try a custom made seating stem that fits the bullet better.

Like you've been saying Brian I should probably quit worrying. It's just in my nature to want to fully understand a process and make the best component I can.

Dan
 
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