branc davidians and the texas rangers.....

fubsy

New member
Ive heards just a blip on the radio and cant find anymore out on this, I didnt know the investigation/court case was still going on........
what i heard was that the tx rangers were investigating the situation at waco and their investigation has revealed that the fbi did indeed shoot pyrotechniques into the compound, and on their manifests had them listed as tear gas, but they were flash bangs which have been known to cause fires do to the charge used in them---I remember hearing this before, but why are they still going into this, havent the courts already rulled and the davidians lost,,,,,,,fubsy.
 

nwgunman

New member
fubsy: If you are interested in getting a little of the real story of this outrage, there is a video titled "Waco: Rules of Engagement". You can get it from Paladin and other media sources.
 

Mike Spight

New member
Fubsy: Saw something along those lines on the tube yesterday. Seems as if the Rangers collected pyro/incendiary device residue when they combed through what was left of the compound. They treated it as evidence, tagged it, and are holding in one of their state evidence rooms. Bottom line implication is that FBI/ATF and DOJ reps were lying like rugs when they asserted (under oath) that they fired no incendiaries into the building. I'm shocked...the ATF and FBI LYING to us? Say it ain't so!

Mike
 

boing

New member
I saw "Waco: The Rules of Engagement" at BlockBuster yesterday, in the New Releases section. Only one copy, but it was conveniently positioned at eye level. I was surprised to see it in such a "mainstream" video outlet. Encouraging. Maybe a few more folks will get mad.

I'm going back today to rent it. I haven't been mad in almost 12 hours.

-boing
 

Mike Spight

New member
boing: Is this the same report that appeared on Front Line a few months ago? I did not get to see all of it. If so, I'll go to local Blockbuster and see if it's available here as well

Mike
 

Matt19

New member
Another source of information is the book:
"No More Wacos" by David Kopel. It is a fascinating look into what happened. You may not find it on the bookshelves at the nearest bookstore, but you should be able to order it without any difficulty.

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If what you know isn't what you do, then your training is incomplete.
 

fubsy

New member
tks for the info guys, i was following this extremely close for quite while and I have had a copy of that tape since right after the murder of those folks......I had thought that this was more or less over but im wondering now if perhaps the tx rangers might be investigating on their own...and what if anything might come of it...fubsy.
 

John/az2

New member
Concerning the case:

Site:

http://www.dallasnews.com/texas_southwest/0728tsw100davidians.htm

Article:

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Official disputes FBI account of Davidian fire
Justice Department denies incendiary devices used

07/28/99

By Lee Hancock / The Dallas Morning News

© 1999, The Dallas Morning News

WACO, Texas - The head of the Texas Department of Public Safety said Tuesday that evidence held by the Texas Rangers since the 1993 Branch Davidian siege calls into question the federal government's claim that its agents used no incendiary devices on the day that a fire consumed the sect's compound.

"There's some evidence that is at least problematic or at least questionable with regard to what happened," said James B. Francis Jr. of Dallas, chairman of the Texas Department of Public Safety.

Mr. Francis declined to detail the evidence but said, "With the proper experts analyzing it, it might shed light as to whether an incendiary device was fired into the compound that day."

Myron Marlin, a spokesman with the Justice Department in Washington, D.C., dismissed the allegation.

"It's more nonsense. We know of no evidence to support an allegation that any incendiary device was fired into the compound on April 19, 1993," Mr. Marlin said.

He declined to comment further, citing a continuing wrongful-death lawsuit filed by surviving sect members and families of the more than 70 people who died when the compound burned.

Sources close to the government's Davidian investigation say the current questions center on several 40 mm munitions found in the compound wreckage.

In repeated sworn statements and testimony, FBI and Department of Justice officials have maintained that FBI agents did not fire a shot during the 51-day siege.

FBI and Justice officials have insisted that FBI agents did not use any pyrotechnic or incendiary devices during the tear-gas assault that ended with the compound consumed by fire.

The Texas Rangers have had custody of the evidence from the Davidian investigation since 1993, when they were assigned to investigate the standoff and its fiery ending. The siege began with a firefight and the deaths of four agents from the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms, which had tried to search the compound for illegal weapons and arrest Branch Davidian leader David Koresh.

Mr. Francis said Tuesday that some FBI officials made statements to Texas Rangers immediately after the fire "that are contradictory" to the federal government's account of what happened.

Complaints studied

Mr. Francis told The Dallas Morning News that he only recently became aware of those statements as he began looking into complaints about the lack of public access to evidence in the Davidian investigation.

Mr. Francis said he became concerned enough to contact U.S. District Judge Walter Smith of Waco, who has presided over all the cases arising from the deadly standoff. DPS recently filed a motion asking Judge Smith to take control of the evidence in the case.

"I took the steps to turn it over to the court so the court could decide what to do," Mr. Francis said. "I think it's very important that whatever the evidence is and whatever it shows, that all of it come out and let the chips fall where they may."

Judge Smith, who heard the criminal case arising from the Davidian siege, is presiding over the wrongful-death lawsuit filed by sect members against the federal government.

In a ruling issued July 1, Judge Smith refused to dismiss Davidian claims that the FBI may have fired at the compound April 19 and allegations that FBI negligence was responsible for the final tragedy. A trial has been set for mid-October, but both sides have said the complexity of the case may mean it will not go to trial until next year.

Mr. Francis said he told Judge Smith that a Justice Department policy blocking all public access to the Davidian evidence had created what amounted to an "absurd" shell game, with the DPS stuck in the middle.

"I said, 'It is in effect a cover-up. It is not intended to be, but in effect it is," Mr. Francis said. "It is a complete stonewall."

Mr. Francis said he doesn't think there was "some grand conspiracy to hide the evidence. I think it evolved into a situation where that was the effect of it."

He said the judge asked only "how much space are we going to need," when Mr. Francis proposed turning over the evidence in the case to his federal court in Waco.

Material gathered

After the siege, about 40 Texas Rangers were assigned to investigate and gather evidence in the case, and their investigation became the backbone of a 1994 criminal trial in which eight Branch Davidians were convicted of charges ranging from manslaughter to weapons violations.

More than 24,000 pounds of evidence was gathered from the burned wreckage of the Branch Davidian compound, and much of that remains in federal storage in Waco.

Evidence used in the federal prosecutions was transferred to DPS headquarters in Austin for safekeeping. Although Texas Rangers had custody of the material, Justice Department officials retained authority over who could see it. They ordered DPS officials to route requests for access to Washington.

Mr. Francis and others in the agency said DPS officials became increasingly frustrated as they learned that Justice Department officials routinely sent those requests back to Austin with the explanation that the evidence was in the custody of Texas officials.

"It was a perfect Catch-22 to block everybody from seeing the evidence," Mr. Francis said. "There is some evidence there that the world needs to see, in my opinion. The government does not want this evidence out, and yet, that's not right."

Justice Department lawyers filed a response Friday asking the judge to delay action on the DPS motion until next week to allow federal authorities to try to negotiate an agreement.

The lawyers declined to comment on the matter Tuesday. But several said privately that the dispute is nothing more than a legal issue.

"It's not a matter of trying to hide anything," one lawyer said.

The issue began coming to a head last spring when DPS officials began fielding complaints that a Colorado documentary researcher had been allowed access to the evidence.

Evidence reviewed

The researcher, Michael McNulty, was a producer and principal researcher in a 1997 documentary that alleged that government agents fired into the Davidian compound and set off devices that started the fire. He is preparing a new documentary on the standoff, with release expected in September.

Mr. McNulty's visits were approved by a Justice Department public-affairs official who has since left the agency, and they were supervised by Assistant U.S. Attorney Bill Johnston, the Waco-based federal prosecutor who handled the Branch Davidian case from its inception.

Mr. Johnston said he supported the decision to give Mr. McNulty access because "I didn't want to be a party to even a perception that we had something to hide."

"Although I may not agree with him on many things, I believe that Mr. McNulty has a right to his opinions," Mr. Johnston said.

In those visits, Mr. McNulty said, he and an expert assisting his film company examined a 40 mm shell casing and two 40 mm projectiles that he contends are pyrotechnic devices.

He said they also found that at least six items listed in Texas Ranger inventories as silencers or suppressors were actually "flash-bang" devices. Those devices are commonly used by law-enforcement officers to stun suspects, and they sometimes ignite fires in enclosed spaces because they emit a loud bang and flash driven by a small pyrotechnic charge.

Mr. McNulty said he thinks those devices could be key evidence because Texas Rangers' evidence logs indicate they were recovered from areas of the compound in which the fires broke out.

Mr. McNulty said he shared his information about the devices with Mr. Johnston and with lawyers representing Branch Davidians in their wrongful-death lawsuit.

"It's our belief that these pieces of ordnance could - and probably did - have an impact on the fire on April 19th," he said.

A fire investigation conducted after the standoff concluded that the fire was set by sect members.

Mr. McNulty said he was contacted last week by Mr. Johnston and asked to speak with a Texas Ranger who questioned him for more than two hours.

Mr. McNulty said the discussion led him to think the Rangers have opened a preliminary criminal investigation.

Mr. Johnston, Mr. Francis and DPS officials in Austin declined to say whether the agency has opened an investigation.

After Mr. McNulty's last visit in March, Mr. Johnston said, lawyers from the Justice Department who are handling the Davidian wrongful-.death lawsuit contacted him to complain that anyone had been allowed access to the evidence.

Dallas Morning News Washington bureau staff member David Jackson contributed to this report.[/quote]

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John/az

"The middle of the road between the extremes of good and evil, is evil. When freedom is at stake, your silence is not golden, it's yellow..."
 

Futo Inu

New member
Lesson the FBI thus learned from Waco:

Don't ever let pesky state or local police even get within 100 yards of any evidence in the future. That way we can lie with impunity."
 

Ivan8883

New member
For goodness sakes, the video Rules Of engagemnet showed before how those poor people were murdered by the Federal Police at Waco. Now the Texas Rangers come out with the truth! Congress whitewashed their investigation of Waco when the facts were there to see. We the American people are at the mercy of a vicious beast state . We are always hearing from our government about long past holocaust in europe and elsewhere, but the same types or even worse types rule us today in Amerika. It is just too bad that a bunch of armed Americans didnt get together to protect the Branch Dividians from GOVERNMENT MURDER! Our brothers and sisters were butchered in a most vile manner by a government controled by unamerican and alien idealologies. THe image of the branch Davidian compound burning will always stick in my mind. I guess what pisses me off the most is that most people or rather sheeple thought it was neat that these people were killed. After all,what right did they have to live separate from our wonderful society? I guess there will be some satisfaction when these same sheeple,whether Congressmen or dishwashers, find out what this government has in store for THEM !
 

Jeff Thomas

New member
Isn't it interesting how the Justice Department spokesman Marlin so cavalierly dismisses the Texas Rangers? As though they are some kooky Texas militia the feds can simply toss off as nutcases.

At this point, and for obvious reasons, I would find the Rangers to be infinitely more credible than the federal government - especially while they are dangling on the short end of wrongful-death lawsuits.

The feds should have treated this honestly years ago. Perhaps they did, and perhaps they never did anything wrong. But, if so, their actions contributed greatly to the suspicion that has hung over this incident for so very long. I'll be voting with the Rangers and skeptics for the time being.

I should also say that I appreciate the courage of the Texas authorities in continuing to pursue this case. I'm sure they've been pressured considerably to simply fade away.
 

Long Path

New member
I will say, having watched the thing start live on the toob that day, that it did start on both ends of the place at once, and it is pretty much accepted that accellerants were spread from within. (fire inspectors can figure this stuff out; how, I don't know)

NOT that I'm a fan of the ATF or even the FBI. But these guys in the compound were ready to off themselves. The conduct of the FBI pretty much made them believe that that was the time to self-emolate. Little things like broadcasting over loudspeakers "Submit to Proper Authority. Give up at once! Submit to Proper Authority. Give up at once....!" To people that have been preaching the end of the world for years, who are already in a paranoid culture, this was a SIGN. So they took it.

The FBI blew it, no doubt about it. The ATF blew it far worse, with their ridiculous raid of illegal proportions. The FBI is likely LYING about the flashbangs. But... BUT... I firmly believe that the B. D.'s set fire to their own place. Immediately after the fire, one could hear tapes from listening devices placed in milk cartons of the B.D's yelling "It's time! It's time!" and sloshing. Then, fire.
 

Hal

New member
Watch the video. Keep in mind that inside the compound there are children. The adults had a choice, the kids didn't. There was wrong on both sides, but PLEASE remember that the ones on the outside were using force against kids. Most of the evidence has been destroyed, so the truth will be hard to come by, but, all massacres have survivors. The turning point in the video for me was the actions of those outside the compound. Kids in the compound were in real fear for their lives. The word terror is not inappropriate here. The agents outside responded by mooning the compound. The whole video left my shaking with rage and fear. The rage was from the actions of the government, from beginning to end, from before shots were fired, until right now. The fear is from the reaction of the country. What happened in Waco was a true action of a government out of control. What is happening now is a public out of touch. David Koresch(sp) may have been a dirt bag, so may some of his followers, but the kids inside are a different story. Some day Disney will make a cutsy cartoon ala Anastasia about the whole thing.

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Ivan8883

New member
Hal, you dont think the American sheeple really cared that all those children got burned and gassed to death ? Thirty years ago such a incident by our government would have caused outrage among the people and even the media. The masses dont know right from wrong anymore and the Feds and even local lackeys count on the lack of scruples of the masses. That is why it was easy to pull off the Waco brutality.
 

GuttSmoke

New member
Those of you who are LEO's or former LEO's I hope one of the first things you learned about investigations, whether criminal or vehicle, was to preserve the scene. What were the first things the feds did in both WACO and Oklahoma? Destroy that scene. That was enough to make the hair on the back of my neck rise. "I've decided to live outside the law---it's better defined"

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"Solidarity is the Key"
 

Jim V

New member
If I remember correctly the B/D's had no electricty in the compound at the time of the "Final Solution" and were depending on oil lamps and Coleman(tm) lanterns for light. Tanks crashing through the walls would cause a lot of kerosene and Coleman fuel to spill. IMHO

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Ne Conjuge Nobiscum
"If there be treachery, let there be jehad!"
 

Gene Beasley

New member
wacobrn2.gif


Long Path,

I have a different view on the source of the fire and the meaning of the voices on the tape.

[list type=1]
<LI> The tapes could have been produced by anyone wishing to taint the evidence. Given the rest of the feds performance at the scene and the congressional ‘dog and pony show’, I have my doubts on the authenticity.
<LI> Even if the tapes are legitimate recordings, I would think that they would realize that their end was near (not necessarily at their own hands). The statements could mean something completely different.
[/list]

Well worth the time to peruse is the The Massacre of the Branch Davidians

(edit) Search for "Surveillance Recordings"

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ubi ignes est?

[This message has been edited by geneb (edited August 02, 1999).]
 

Hal

New member
Ivan,
Sheepole have concerns too. It is all in how the story was presented to them. Had the media reported the story from the perspective of a kid in the compound, heads would still be rolling. Reno would be in a federal prison serving some life sentances for murder (possibly even treason). As it was, the media presented a picture of a bunch of whackos (convienient huh? Waco and whacko), holed up in a compound. When the kids were mentioned, they cast the light of doubt on the kids being held by nut case parents, against their will. Most of the sheepole I have spoken too about this are ignorant of the fact that so many kids were in the compound. All they remember is the gvt aginst the nut case aspect. The same holds true for a lot of non-sheepole.Waco, Ruby Ridge, Jim Jones, Heavens'Gate,,,whatever is in the news. All of them are reported with a slant to add to sales of advertising on the reporting media, a posturing of political opinion and very little factual information. Why even this morning I read in the local red-rag about the 1911 used in Atlanta. I was surprised to learn from them that this was the same basic design used by Alvin York to capture 132 Germans! <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>The Colt .45 was used by the U.S. military from 1911 until the 1980s, when it was phased out in favor of a Beretta. It's the gun Tom Hanks aims at a tank in the final scene of Saving Private Ryan and the gun Sgt. Alvin C. York used to single-handedly capture 132 Germans during World War II.[/quote] http://www.ohio.com/bj/news/national/docs/015604.htm

Guess it's oK to rewrite historical fact to suit the readers.

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[This message has been edited by Hal (edited August 02, 1999).]
 
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